Underweight boats - Any genuine reasons?
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Simple Answer
No
Lots of reasons why paddlers want the boat built lighter, but no reason to race it underweight, other than up to now the rules have not been enforced .
From our point of view, a light boat is fragile, the extra weight would let us use more materials to reinforce weak areas.
Would paddlers prefer/accept a 8.75kg fully fitted boat
No
Lots of reasons why paddlers want the boat built lighter, but no reason to race it underweight, other than up to now the rules have not been enforced .
From our point of view, a light boat is fragile, the extra weight would let us use more materials to reinforce weak areas.
Would paddlers prefer/accept a 8.75kg fully fitted boat
of course there is a reason people enter underweight boats. cos they cant be bothered to weigh it. i've never bothered weighing my boat. most people jus assume it is the right weight when it arrives.
i am not blaming boat companies for making them too light cos they have too. when you have finished fitting it out to the right spec for you it will be heavier.
you talk about it like it is inexcusable and inexplicabe crime. i only think it should be punished if you do it more than once with the same boat.
i am not blaming boat companies for making them too light cos they have too. when you have finished fitting it out to the right spec for you it will be heavier.
you talk about it like it is inexcusable and inexplicabe crime. i only think it should be punished if you do it more than once with the same boat.
to be honest i think that all boats paddled in any division at any races should be of the right weight. if you are paddling a boat which is say 8k then at the panceltic you have to shove some weight in it then its gonna paddle different and therefore this is a downfall of you. If your boat is underweight for ANY race this is a form of cheating.
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I have noticed that all things get heavier as they get older - especially paddlers!
Was your boat 8.4 before it was fitted out? ???
Perhaps as relevant is why did you take a boat to an event when you thought the boat was illegal? I agree with beefy, all boats should be the correct weight in all divisions.
Was your boat 8.4 before it was fitted out? ???
Perhaps as relevant is why did you take a boat to an event when you thought the boat was illegal? I agree with beefy, all boats should be the correct weight in all divisions.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
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- Fison100@hotmail.com
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Don't see any reason for those with new boats not to know the weight - the manufacturer should advise on the delivery.
Those with older boats may not be so sure but surely with a few repairs the boat will make weight anyway.
Anyway from Sundays performance at tully, my boat was checked as I came off the water and sailed through with plenty to spare. Albeit I did empty a further litre of water (about 1kg) out after the weigh in.
Any boat will have a difference between dry and wet weight (even if it is watertight), just make sure yours is wet when you have it checked - a litre of water weighs about 1kg
There was an argument that lightweight boats could be trimmed to suit the paddler, in theory the argument holds but not so sure in practise....
But if the rules are there they should be policed and used effectively ??
Those with older boats may not be so sure but surely with a few repairs the boat will make weight anyway.
Anyway from Sundays performance at tully, my boat was checked as I came off the water and sailed through with plenty to spare. Albeit I did empty a further litre of water (about 1kg) out after the weigh in.
Any boat will have a difference between dry and wet weight (even if it is watertight), just make sure yours is wet when you have it checked - a litre of water weighs about 1kg
There was an argument that lightweight boats could be trimmed to suit the paddler, in theory the argument holds but not so sure in practise....
But if the rules are there they should be policed and used effectively ??
Maybe i'm on my own with this thought but i really don't care one bit if other people are racing in underweight boats.
I put a kilo weight in my boat last week which made no difference at all (due to it being placed centrally). It then weighed in at 9.65. Did i for one second think that the extra .65 was going to make the slightest difference? No.
Plenty of paddlers race in boats of 10k, have they got such a major disadvantage? You never hear any of the top boys say, "if i was paddling a 7k boat i'd have done that break out much better", no of course not because if any one looses time on a run its because they've made a mistake not because of the weight of there boat.
I'm sure that theres alot more to be gained from trimming back on your body weight rather than worrying if someones boat weighs a few grams less than yours.
To me the whole boat weighing excercise seems pointless and is a complete waist of time.
I put a kilo weight in my boat last week which made no difference at all (due to it being placed centrally). It then weighed in at 9.65. Did i for one second think that the extra .65 was going to make the slightest difference? No.
Plenty of paddlers race in boats of 10k, have they got such a major disadvantage? You never hear any of the top boys say, "if i was paddling a 7k boat i'd have done that break out much better", no of course not because if any one looses time on a run its because they've made a mistake not because of the weight of there boat.
I'm sure that theres alot more to be gained from trimming back on your body weight rather than worrying if someones boat weighs a few grams less than yours.
To me the whole boat weighing excercise seems pointless and is a complete waist of time.
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Ah Andy, how true. I am sure that I would paddle faster if I could trim a couple of boat weights from me, never mind the boat!
I talked to Bernie Cole at HPP, and despite having one of the heaviest boats at the competition he was still pushing much less down the course than I was.
BUT if there is a rule, we should either abide by it or get it changed, not just ignore it. AFter all objecting that the 70 mph speed limit was intorduced when cars were less safe, so should have been changed will not help in your defence when stopped doing 90! Sue Janes is our rep on the ICF, and the BCU can make proposals to congress, if anyone thinks they can get support they should go for it, lobby, start a campaign etc.
If my memory serves the rule came in 'at the top' after World championships were being run by people in super light weight boats that were only of use for a single competition. At that time there was a perceived benefit form ligth weight boats. This however favoured those rich enough (or sponsored enough) to be able to afford a boat an event. Since the minimum weight was introduced people stopped trying to make super light boats and it dropped out of the equation. No good hoping for things which cannot happen.
Seedy paddler is quite right thoufg water is heavy (Yep I had my boat weighed after a run down the course, just in case). So returning to one of the original posts the difference between ultra dry deliveryt at 8.4 Kg and weight at an event could be water (outside or absorbed inside - from the atmosphere) and even mud off your feet when getting in. Is this possible Fison100, after all it was not exactly desert dry at Tully, and you may have had a paddle as well?
PS Thanks Pingu for starting an interesting thread
I talked to Bernie Cole at HPP, and despite having one of the heaviest boats at the competition he was still pushing much less down the course than I was.
BUT if there is a rule, we should either abide by it or get it changed, not just ignore it. AFter all objecting that the 70 mph speed limit was intorduced when cars were less safe, so should have been changed will not help in your defence when stopped doing 90! Sue Janes is our rep on the ICF, and the BCU can make proposals to congress, if anyone thinks they can get support they should go for it, lobby, start a campaign etc.
If my memory serves the rule came in 'at the top' after World championships were being run by people in super light weight boats that were only of use for a single competition. At that time there was a perceived benefit form ligth weight boats. This however favoured those rich enough (or sponsored enough) to be able to afford a boat an event. Since the minimum weight was introduced people stopped trying to make super light boats and it dropped out of the equation. No good hoping for things which cannot happen.
Seedy paddler is quite right thoufg water is heavy (Yep I had my boat weighed after a run down the course, just in case). So returning to one of the original posts the difference between ultra dry deliveryt at 8.4 Kg and weight at an event could be water (outside or absorbed inside - from the atmosphere) and even mud off your feet when getting in. Is this possible Fison100, after all it was not exactly desert dry at Tully, and you may have had a paddle as well?
PS Thanks Pingu for starting an interesting thread
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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Here is a rough guide to the weight of DD boats.
B Construction 9 - 9.5kilos
D Construction 8.2 - 8.4 kilos
E Construction 8.65 - 8.8 kilos
F Construction 8 Kilos
I personally have no problem with paddling a 9 kilo boat, I here lots of reasons from customers as to why they dont want a heavy boat. The first thing a top paddler will do when he gets his new boat is feel the weight and if its heavy, they let you know PDQ.
Keeping the 9 kilo weight limit does even the playing field for those who cant afford a construction with expensive materials.
This discussion does throw up some points though which the slalom committee may wish to clarify.
The weight to be fixed and permament. I agree with fixed but define permament. David Backhouse uses a weight which is attached with a bolt to the hull, its not permament but he races at International level with it. A weight attached by araldite, is this permament? what if they hit a rock and the weight comes loose.
All I would like to see is a well defined guideline for what is required, not open to misinterpretation by individuals.
Other points to consider
Should the boat be weighed wet or dry?
Should the inside of the boat be sponged out before weighing to stop someone adding water at the end of the run during their warmdown.
What scales are to be used, are they calibrated, is there a test weight to confirm that they are accurate at the event if someone challenges the scales, especially if their boat was correct at the previous race.
If these points are addressed now, then maybe we can avoid dragging this debate out over the next few months or every time someones boat fails.
B Construction 9 - 9.5kilos
D Construction 8.2 - 8.4 kilos
E Construction 8.65 - 8.8 kilos
F Construction 8 Kilos
I personally have no problem with paddling a 9 kilo boat, I here lots of reasons from customers as to why they dont want a heavy boat. The first thing a top paddler will do when he gets his new boat is feel the weight and if its heavy, they let you know PDQ.
Keeping the 9 kilo weight limit does even the playing field for those who cant afford a construction with expensive materials.
This discussion does throw up some points though which the slalom committee may wish to clarify.
The weight to be fixed and permament. I agree with fixed but define permament. David Backhouse uses a weight which is attached with a bolt to the hull, its not permament but he races at International level with it. A weight attached by araldite, is this permament? what if they hit a rock and the weight comes loose.
All I would like to see is a well defined guideline for what is required, not open to misinterpretation by individuals.
Other points to consider
Should the boat be weighed wet or dry?
Should the inside of the boat be sponged out before weighing to stop someone adding water at the end of the run during their warmdown.
What scales are to be used, are they calibrated, is there a test weight to confirm that they are accurate at the event if someone challenges the scales, especially if their boat was correct at the previous race.
If these points are addressed now, then maybe we can avoid dragging this debate out over the next few months or every time someones boat fails.
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Some very valid points from our Dutch counterpart, and some considerations from experience at Tully (and albeit some time ago at International events abroad):
1/ The weigh-in has to be set-up prior to competition, if a boat fails then you can fix weight and return. There may be random checks post race but unless you had significant damage then there should not be a problem exceeding pre-start weight.
2/ The boat should be sponged dry for weight check, at Tully I easily lost just under a kilo by sponging the boat out after the weight check.
3/ There is a real issue on calibration of the scales, at Tully they were using what looked like bathroom scales and I can easily vouch that I can gain or (preferably) lose a couple of kilos depending whose bathroom scales I stand on.
4/ By fixed and permanent I believe there must be force or tools required to remove the weight, not just cutting a tywrap or bit of string or jammed under the seat/buoyancy. Hence bolted or araldite should be OK, after all you could break off a section of nose or tail during the race - does this fail the vetting ?
Personally boat weight is of limited influence to me, after all i stick 15 stone into the boat so whether it weighs 8 or 10 kg is of little consequence
1/ The weigh-in has to be set-up prior to competition, if a boat fails then you can fix weight and return. There may be random checks post race but unless you had significant damage then there should not be a problem exceeding pre-start weight.
2/ The boat should be sponged dry for weight check, at Tully I easily lost just under a kilo by sponging the boat out after the weight check.
3/ There is a real issue on calibration of the scales, at Tully they were using what looked like bathroom scales and I can easily vouch that I can gain or (preferably) lose a couple of kilos depending whose bathroom scales I stand on.
4/ By fixed and permanent I believe there must be force or tools required to remove the weight, not just cutting a tywrap or bit of string or jammed under the seat/buoyancy. Hence bolted or araldite should be OK, after all you could break off a section of nose or tail during the race - does this fail the vetting ?
Personally boat weight is of limited influence to me, after all i stick 15 stone into the boat so whether it weighs 8 or 10 kg is of little consequence