Underweight boats - Any genuine reasons?

Pingu · Post by **Pingu** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:35 pm

Simple question.

Is there any genuine reason or excuse for a paddler to try and enter a race with an underweight boat?

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:31 pm

Simple Answer
No

Lots of reasons why paddlers want the boat built lighter, but no reason to race it underweight, other than up to now the rules have not been enforced .

From our point of view, a light boat is fragile, the extra weight would let us use more materials to reinforce weak areas.

Would paddlers prefer/accept a 8.75kg fully fitted boat

guest · Post by **guest** » Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:36 pm

Simple reply

No!

The weight rule has been around since 1986, I think everyone should be aware of it by now.

Jimi3000 · Post by **Jimi3000** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:29 am

of course there is a reason people enter underweight boats. cos they cant be bothered to weigh it. i've never bothered weighing my boat. most people jus assume it is the right weight when it arrives.

i am not blaming boat companies for making them too light cos they have too. when you have finished fitting it out to the right spec for you it will be heavier.

you talk about it like it is inexcusable and inexplicabe crime. i only think it should be punished if you do it more than once with the same boat.

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Mar 25, 2005 10:52 am

with the new boat length change should the weight limits of boats be changed to? i'm sure that in the last 20 years boat manufacturing has improved and a boat could now be lighter and just as strong as back then. i personally think that the limit should go down to 8kg.

what does everyone think?

beefy · Post by **beefy** » Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:48 am

to be honest i think that all boats paddled in any division at any races should be of the right weight. if you are paddling a boat which is say 8k then at the panceltic you have to shove some weight in it then its gonna paddle different and therefore this is a downfall of you. If your boat is underweight for ANY race this is a form of cheating.

Fison100@hotmail.com · Post by **Fison100@hotmail.com** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:42 pm

well my boat got weighed at Tully and it weighed 9.2kg and was only 8.4 whan new and that means it has put on weight.

kanu.63 · Post by **kanu.63** » Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:17 pm

Has the boat put on weight or you

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:17 am

I have noticed that all things get heavier as they get older - especially paddlers!

Was your boat 8.4 before it was fitted out? ???

Perhaps as relevant is why did you take a boat to an event when you thought the boat was illegal?

I agree with beefy, all boats should be the correct weight in all divisions.

Fison100@hotmail.com · Post by **Fison100@hotmail.com** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:46 am

i got my boat at the end of the season last year and trained all winter with it my reasons for boat weight is if it is buit to a good construction then the weight should not matter. and no i did not put on weight thanks

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:18 pm

Don't see any reason for those with new boats not to know the weight - the manufacturer should advise on the delivery.

Those with older boats may not be so sure but surely with a few repairs the boat will make weight anyway.

Anyway from Sundays performance at tully, my boat was checked as I came off the water and sailed through with plenty to spare. Albeit I did empty a further litre of water (about 1kg) out after the weigh in.

Any boat will have a difference between dry and wet weight (even if it is watertight), just make sure yours is wet when you have it checked - a litre of water weighs about 1kg

There was an argument that lightweight boats could be trimmed to suit the paddler, in theory the argument holds but not so sure in practise....

But if the rules are there they should be policed and used effectively ??

Andy Greensmith · Post by **Andy Greensmith** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:24 pm

Maybe i'm on my own with this thought but i really don't care one bit if other people are racing in underweight boats.

I put a kilo weight in my boat last week which made no difference at all (due to it being placed centrally). It then weighed in at 9.65. Did i for one second think that the extra .65 was going to make the slightest difference? No.

Plenty of paddlers race in boats of 10k, have they got such a major disadvantage? You never hear any of the top boys say, "if i was paddling a 7k boat i'd have done that break out much better", no of course not because if any one looses time on a run its because they've made a mistake not because of the weight of there boat.

I'm sure that theres alot more to be gained from trimming back on your body weight rather than worrying if someones boat weighs a few grams less than yours.

To me the whole boat weighing excercise seems pointless and is a complete waist of time.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:24 am

Ah Andy, how true. I am sure that I would paddle faster if I could trim a couple of boat weights from me, never mind the boat!

I talked to Bernie Cole at HPP, and despite having one of the heaviest boats at the competition he was still pushing much less down the course than I was.

BUT if there is a rule, we should either abide by it or get it changed, not just ignore it. AFter all objecting that the 70 mph speed limit was intorduced when cars were less safe, so should have been changed will not help in your defence when stopped doing 90! Sue Janes is our rep on the ICF, and the BCU can make proposals to congress, if anyone thinks they can get support they should go for it, lobby, start a campaign etc.

If my memory serves the rule came in 'at the top' after World championships were being run by people in super light weight boats that were only of use for a single competition. At that time there was a perceived benefit form ligth weight boats. This however favoured those rich enough (or sponsored enough) to be able to afford a boat an event. Since the minimum weight was introduced people stopped trying to make super light boats and it dropped out of the equation. No good hoping for things which cannot happen.

Seedy paddler is quite right thoufg water is heavy (Yep I had my boat weighed after a run down the course, just in case). So returning to one of the original posts the difference between ultra dry deliveryt at 8.4 Kg and weight at an event could be water (outside or absorbed inside - from the atmosphere) and even mud off your feet when getting in. Is this possible Fison100, after all it was not exactly desert dry at Tully, and you may have had a paddle as well?

PS Thanks Pingu for starting an interesting thread

Dutch Geezer · Post by **Dutch Geezer** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:23 am

Here is a rough guide to the weight of DD boats.

B Construction 9 - 9.5kilos
D Construction 8.2 - 8.4 kilos
E Construction 8.65 - 8.8 kilos
F Construction 8 Kilos

I personally have no problem with paddling a 9 kilo boat, I here lots of reasons from customers as to why they dont want a heavy boat. The first thing a top paddler will do when he gets his new boat is feel the weight and if its heavy, they let you know PDQ.

Keeping the 9 kilo weight limit does even the playing field for those who cant afford a construction with expensive materials.

This discussion does throw up some points though which the slalom committee may wish to clarify.

The weight to be fixed and permament. I agree with fixed but define permament. David Backhouse uses a weight which is attached with a bolt to the hull, its not permament but he races at International level with it. A weight attached by araldite, is this permament? what if they hit a rock and the weight comes loose.

All I would like to see is a well defined guideline for what is required, not open to misinterpretation by individuals.

Other points to consider

Should the boat be weighed wet or dry?

Should the inside of the boat be sponged out before weighing to stop someone adding water at the end of the run during their warmdown.

What scales are to be used, are they calibrated, is there a test weight to confirm that they are accurate at the event if someone challenges the scales, especially if their boat was correct at the previous race.

If these points are addressed now, then maybe we can avoid dragging this debate out over the next few months or every time someones boat fails.

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:59 pm

Some very valid points from our Dutch counterpart, and some considerations from experience at Tully (and albeit some time ago at International events abroad):
1/ The weigh-in has to be set-up prior to competition, if a boat fails then you can fix weight and return. There may be random checks post race but unless you had significant damage then there should not be a problem exceeding pre-start weight.
2/ The boat should be sponged dry for weight check, at Tully I easily lost just under a kilo by sponging the boat out after the weight check.
3/ There is a real issue on calibration of the scales, at Tully they were using what looked like bathroom scales and I can easily vouch that I can gain or (preferably) lose a couple of kilos depending whose bathroom scales I stand on.
4/ By fixed and permanent I believe there must be force or tools required to remove the weight, not just cutting a tywrap or bit of string or jammed under the seat/buoyancy. Hence bolted or araldite should be OK, after all you could break off a section of nose or tail during the race - does this fail the vetting ?

Personally boat weight is of limited influence to me, after all i stick 15 stone into the boat so whether it weighs 8 or 10 kg is of little consequence