Promation to prem
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
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The decision is traditionally made at the exec meeting the day after the ACM, and Nick usually manages to get teh info up quickly.
If you want to second guess, look at the number in Prem this year vs the number last year, then look for a 'jump' in points at around that level.
e.g. if there were 50 and 47 paddled, then look at the top five, if the first two are close then there is a bigger difference then it is likely to be 2.
If you want to second guess, look at the number in Prem this year vs the number last year, then look for a 'jump' in points at around that level.
e.g. if there were 50 and 47 paddled, then look at the top five, if the first two are close then there is a bigger difference then it is likely to be 2.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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tonka
Hopefully there will be no end of year promotions from Div 1 to prem. Why do they need it after the Div 1 Championship where they automatically promoted the highest ranked div 1 paddler. I feel sorry for those who had to work hard for their promotion. All they needed to do was to go to no Div 1 races all year and then just win the Div 1 Championship. Look at the money they would have saved in entry and travel alone.
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c2canoeslalom
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: Sheffield
Id have to disagree with you Kanu.63. By promoting too many people to Prem the sport becomes 'top heavy'. Think of the number of competitors in each division and then represent these numbers as a pyramid with the premier division at the top. A pyramid should have a wide base with sloping sides coming to a peak at the top. I believe that in canoeing the numbers in each division does not represent this style of pyramid. It is more of a honeycomb shape where there are too many competitors getting into the higher divisions.
I'm sure there will be number of people who will argue that there are more Div 4's than there are Div 3. But if you count the number of people who consistently race Div 4 and maybe even div 3 I expect the numbers are quite low.
Maybe somebody could raise the issue at the ACM. Would it be better to run each division like the football league where there are only end of season promotions? This would promote a need for consistent racing throughout the season and makes it interesting and more exciting in the last few races where there may be a group of consistent paddlers all battling for the several end of year promotion spots.
What are other people's thoughts. Is the sport getting 'top heavy' and so less people be promoted to Prem? Or do you think that more people should be promoted? If so, do you think that the current way of achieving promotion is adequate?
I'm sure there will be number of people who will argue that there are more Div 4's than there are Div 3. But if you count the number of people who consistently race Div 4 and maybe even div 3 I expect the numbers are quite low.
Maybe somebody could raise the issue at the ACM. Would it be better to run each division like the football league where there are only end of season promotions? This would promote a need for consistent racing throughout the season and makes it interesting and more exciting in the last few races where there may be a group of consistent paddlers all battling for the several end of year promotion spots.
What are other people's thoughts. Is the sport getting 'top heavy' and so less people be promoted to Prem? Or do you think that more people should be promoted? If so, do you think that the current way of achieving promotion is adequate?
RESIST OR SERVE
Another thought .. if heading down the Football path .. how about end of season 'race-offs' .. the number in Prem being dictated both by promotions and relegations. It should be possible for more paddlers to be promoted if the standard at the top of Div1 is higher than at the bottom of Prem with numbers maintained by more relegations. Just a thought.
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c2canoeslalom
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 10:36 pm
- Location: Sheffield
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
<Mounts soap box> 
The idea of promoting more to prem (average attendance I believe arounf 100 paddlers, each paying over £10) to make them more viable, leaves less in div 2/3 where average attendance is lower and each paddler pays less, thus making div 3/4 events even less viable.
(see other thread for arguments on 'profit' from lower end events)
<Off soap box><Onto self promotion> :p
We are already promoting C2 paddlers faster than their ability (with appologies to anyone who feels slighted by this). Hence the Proteus Motion ot the ACM changing the way we promote C2s, this will slow down promotion, but we believe will not affect the size of Prem/1 as the paddlers affected generally give up.
When I get the agenda, I will post the various motions as polls to allow you all to express an opinion. Then try to get your clubs to vote appropriately.
If you do not have a club rep going to the ACM, but your club wants to vote, I will be going, and am willing to exercise your votes, provided you give clear instructions, and make it clear where/when I can use discretion. I will even vote against Proteus' motions if that is your wish.
EVEN Better! bring them to the winter slalm on 20th November (you knew I had to get it in there somewhere).
The idea of promoting more to prem (average attendance I believe arounf 100 paddlers, each paying over £10) to make them more viable, leaves less in div 2/3 where average attendance is lower and each paddler pays less, thus making div 3/4 events even less viable.
(see other thread for arguments on 'profit' from lower end events)
<Off soap box><Onto self promotion> :p
We are already promoting C2 paddlers faster than their ability (with appologies to anyone who feels slighted by this). Hence the Proteus Motion ot the ACM changing the way we promote C2s, this will slow down promotion, but we believe will not affect the size of Prem/1 as the paddlers affected generally give up.
When I get the agenda, I will post the various motions as polls to allow you all to express an opinion. Then try to get your clubs to vote appropriately.
If you do not have a club rep going to the ACM, but your club wants to vote, I will be going, and am willing to exercise your votes, provided you give clear instructions, and make it clear where/when I can use discretion. I will even vote against Proteus' motions if that is your wish.
EVEN Better! bring them to the winter slalm on 20th November (you knew I had to get it in there somewhere).
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Nice idea to have just end of season promotions in all divisions - like football. The comparison doesn't work though because football clubs don't suddenly get massive improvements in form, whereas individual paddlers do. By only allowing end of season promotion it would take a talented junior 4 full years before getting into Prem - not exactly good for junior development. Also not fair on those who are middle of the road Div 2 (say) getting beat every week by 20+ seconds by somebody who should be in Prem. There used to be only end of season from 1 to Prem - don't know why it was scrapped but I guess it was for those reasons. I'm sure somebody on here will know.
There are a few paddlers (C2's possibly the most?) who are getting out of their depths in Div1 and Prem but if they're that bad they'll get demoted back again. Maybe we need to make Div2 races tougher, and have more 1/2's rather than 2/3's? I think the balance of numbers is about right currently but I agree we don't want to promote any more than we are doing. It may be harsh and it may be me next year but if anything we need to demote more.
There are a few paddlers (C2's possibly the most?) who are getting out of their depths in Div1 and Prem but if they're that bad they'll get demoted back again. Maybe we need to make Div2 races tougher, and have more 1/2's rather than 2/3's? I think the balance of numbers is about right currently but I agree we don't want to promote any more than we are doing. It may be harsh and it may be me next year but if anything we need to demote more.
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Guest
I believe that we should return to the old style end of season promotion for Div 1 paddlers. It would result in a far more competitive environment for the full season. I have spoken to several paddlers who don't believe themselves to be prem standard but who are in danger of getting promoted towards the end of a season because a lot of paddlers have already been promoted.
The argument that in would not help junior development is rubbish. Div I would be a very competitive environment and the juniors would have to "step up" to the challenge and provide consitent season long results. It is possible to be, being blunt about it, rubbish and still manage to stay in prem, all you have to do is be consistently getting all the gates and you will end up with around 1200 points at the end of the season (usually around 4-10 paddlers will get 50's). That is hardly going to help junior development. Leave everyone in Div 1 for the full season and they have to perform to get promoted... then equally demote a large proportion of paddlers from prem back down to Div 1.
As for the cost of the running the events... wise up... run either more doubles, or more combined events (e.g. P+1, 1+2, 2+3 etc...) to reduce the costs.
The argument that in would not help junior development is rubbish. Div I would be a very competitive environment and the juniors would have to "step up" to the challenge and provide consitent season long results. It is possible to be, being blunt about it, rubbish and still manage to stay in prem, all you have to do is be consistently getting all the gates and you will end up with around 1200 points at the end of the season (usually around 4-10 paddlers will get 50's). That is hardly going to help junior development. Leave everyone in Div 1 for the full season and they have to perform to get promoted... then equally demote a large proportion of paddlers from prem back down to Div 1.
As for the cost of the running the events... wise up... run either more doubles, or more combined events (e.g. P+1, 1+2, 2+3 etc...) to reduce the costs.
Well i did not except this responce but can i just add that i aggre with the point of been in div 1 for a year and then promted at the end of season. when i got prometed in 95 i think i had only had one top 10 result and yes this year had 5 top 10 results. I know i mite have sour grapes but it kepted the numbers at a constant level and not like the last 2 years where you would have 40 in one race and 60 the next as this has had a huge effect on the points given out to the numbers in the race hope you know what i mean :;):
lets get it on