This may have been asked before, i don't know.
Why is it that entering slalom events are firmly stuck in last century? Posting entries on a card, seems to me that whilst me make every effort to move the sport forward some area's are firmly stuck in the last century!
I would hazard a guess that there are plenty of other paddlers out there, and not just in slalom, who would rather be able to enter competitions and receive a copy of the results electonically.
To me benefits to slalom could be:
1. Easy to import entries in to the event software (assumes suitable software available)
2. Deadline for entries could be closer to the date of the event
3. Entry lists could be emailed
4. Results lists could be emailed
5. Reduces the stress of late entries from organisers
and so on........
Ok, so on the downside you can argue that not everyone would have suitable software. cost of payment online (to clubs) etc. If some clubs accepted on line entries etc i'm sure they would reap benefits that clubs which only accepted postal entries missed out on.
In some cases potential, or current paddlers may be more inclined to compete at events, who knows what impact to paddler number could be.
So are there others out there who also feel that the whole entry system needs reviewing? Either by the Slalom Committee, or the BCU?
Entries over the internet - Enter events online
I agree with what you say and it could be easier as technolgy has gone forward, but the downfall I can see is how would you send payment with your entries electronically?
I certainly agree with being able to receive entry list's and results by email, this would cut down a lot of time having to do them by hand.
Also you could receive an acknowledgement that your entry had been received, rather than hoping the postal service had delivered your precious envelope.
I am sure that it is possible to do, the question would be have all the clubs the resources to deal with on-line applications?
I certainly agree with being able to receive entry list's and results by email, this would cut down a lot of time having to do them by hand.
Also you could receive an acknowledgement that your entry had been received, rather than hoping the postal service had delivered your precious envelope.
I am sure that it is possible to do, the question would be have all the clubs the resources to deal with on-line applications?
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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Guestt
See Fairnilee topic in events - I probably should've posted it here in a new topic.
It really wouldn't cost very much to develop a simple sub-site of the BCU site which took entries and displayed results and rankings. Then as it is now a condition of holding a ranking slalom that the results gets passed to the ranking co-ordinator that changes to results must be passed to the system. As I see slaloms mostly use that same computer systems (actually I can only think of 2) and I'm sure if BCU were to comission a standard for data exchange of entries and results that those software authors could bring out new versions to match. While XML is probably the medium of choice now old fashioned CSV would be good to help small clubs who do results in a spreadsheet. To non-techies this may all sound daunting but really it isn't, and many small sports with little funding have done this sort of thing.
Payment - somebody like WorldPay who are a division of RBS charge about £50 to set-up online transactions and I think 25p a transaction if paying by debit card (think it's about 4% for credit cards - obviously BCU would promote use of debit cards, or perhaps their own card...). Not much really.
It really wouldn't cost very much to develop a simple sub-site of the BCU site which took entries and displayed results and rankings. Then as it is now a condition of holding a ranking slalom that the results gets passed to the ranking co-ordinator that changes to results must be passed to the system. As I see slaloms mostly use that same computer systems (actually I can only think of 2) and I'm sure if BCU were to comission a standard for data exchange of entries and results that those software authors could bring out new versions to match. While XML is probably the medium of choice now old fashioned CSV would be good to help small clubs who do results in a spreadsheet. To non-techies this may all sound daunting but really it isn't, and many small sports with little funding have done this sort of thing.
Payment - somebody like WorldPay who are a division of RBS charge about £50 to set-up online transactions and I think 25p a transaction if paying by debit card (think it's about 4% for credit cards - obviously BCU would promote use of debit cards, or perhaps their own card...). Not much really.
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Pingu
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There was some discussion of this at a Slalom Advisory Group meeting a year ot two ago but not much has happened since.
Last year's ACM did introduce start lists and results by e-mail but the Slalom Committee still requires entries to be made by post. See UK 11.4.7 on YearBook page 79
Payment issues
Would the WorldPay solution mean that every organising club would have to register and pay £50? Presumably all the paddlers would have to register as payers?
The 25p for a debit card transaction should be no problem to competitors/parents as it's less than the cost of the current method (three stamps and envelopes).
The WorldPay method would save organisers the hassle of having to bank large numbers of cheques. In the past I've had to bank hundreds of cheques for events such as Llangollen. The time taken to record these was substantial.
Entry Cards
An other obstacle I can see is the completion of the entry card.
The card probably has to remain as an essential part of the event organisation. It would be tedious for event organisers to have to complete these by hand and so the software would need to be able to print cards from the entry information received.
What about the paddler signature on the card? Could this be overcome by a disclaimer wording on the entry e-mail? How would we stand if the parent of an under 16 paddler was unaware of the disclaimer?
Other issues
Each paddler could have a unique identifier (separate from their bib number) so that the system could pick up their Club, date of birth, etc.
The system would propably have to be voluntary. Whilst all Clubs ought to have somebody able to send and receive e-mails, organisers of some lower division events might prefer to use manual systems. Certainly some paddlers will always prefer to send entries by post.
There probably is a solution out there somewhere. As previous contributors have pointed out, the advantages could be significant.
Last year's ACM did introduce start lists and results by e-mail but the Slalom Committee still requires entries to be made by post. See UK 11.4.7 on YearBook page 79
Payment issues
Would the WorldPay solution mean that every organising club would have to register and pay £50? Presumably all the paddlers would have to register as payers?
The 25p for a debit card transaction should be no problem to competitors/parents as it's less than the cost of the current method (three stamps and envelopes).
The WorldPay method would save organisers the hassle of having to bank large numbers of cheques. In the past I've had to bank hundreds of cheques for events such as Llangollen. The time taken to record these was substantial.
Entry Cards
An other obstacle I can see is the completion of the entry card.
The card probably has to remain as an essential part of the event organisation. It would be tedious for event organisers to have to complete these by hand and so the software would need to be able to print cards from the entry information received.
What about the paddler signature on the card? Could this be overcome by a disclaimer wording on the entry e-mail? How would we stand if the parent of an under 16 paddler was unaware of the disclaimer?
Other issues
Each paddler could have a unique identifier (separate from their bib number) so that the system could pick up their Club, date of birth, etc.
The system would propably have to be voluntary. Whilst all Clubs ought to have somebody able to send and receive e-mails, organisers of some lower division events might prefer to use manual systems. Certainly some paddlers will always prefer to send entries by post.
There probably is a solution out there somewhere. As previous contributors have pointed out, the advantages could be significant.
Out of Darkness cometh Light
Payment:
WorldPay is one solution which I've used before - there are other available. I would envisage BCU being the only organisation to register - they could then pass on the fees to the club after the event minus the levy they take - seems to cut down work. Paddlers don't need to register - just key in your card no to the WorldPay site (which would be linked in an appropriate way from BCU) and hey presto. WorldPay also allow (for another set-up fee - think £200) processing of PDQ style transactions - this is often cheaper to run than actually having a swipe card PDQ machine which I'm sure BCU have somewhere.
Entry cards:
Had their day too? All they really do if you use software to do the results is display which gates you got which penalty on. Could easily be replaced by a print-out. Maybe a step too far for now though - a compromise could be anybody making an online entry can bring/fill in their card on the day.
Signature:
Part of the process needs a disclaimer screen with an "I accept" on it. Some lawyer types would have to be involved in this but I've been involved in this sort of thing before and it's all fairly plain sailing. Under 16's could be indetified and perhaps require a parental/guardian signature on the day - an under 16 requires official supervision at a slalom so there'll always be someone there.
Unique Identifier:
Easy - BCU/WCA/SCA/CANI number. Canoe England site has got a login now using membership number - just needs an extension of this.
WorldPay is one solution which I've used before - there are other available. I would envisage BCU being the only organisation to register - they could then pass on the fees to the club after the event minus the levy they take - seems to cut down work. Paddlers don't need to register - just key in your card no to the WorldPay site (which would be linked in an appropriate way from BCU) and hey presto. WorldPay also allow (for another set-up fee - think £200) processing of PDQ style transactions - this is often cheaper to run than actually having a swipe card PDQ machine which I'm sure BCU have somewhere.
Entry cards:
Had their day too? All they really do if you use software to do the results is display which gates you got which penalty on. Could easily be replaced by a print-out. Maybe a step too far for now though - a compromise could be anybody making an online entry can bring/fill in their card on the day.
Signature:
Part of the process needs a disclaimer screen with an "I accept" on it. Some lawyer types would have to be involved in this but I've been involved in this sort of thing before and it's all fairly plain sailing. Under 16's could be indetified and perhaps require a parental/guardian signature on the day - an under 16 requires official supervision at a slalom so there'll always be someone there.
Unique Identifier:
Easy - BCU/WCA/SCA/CANI number. Canoe England site has got a login now using membership number - just needs an extension of this.
Firstly I greatly appreciate everybody who does something for nothing in slalom, canoeing as a whole and in other sports, and I do understand that there's already probably a very full agenda for the committee to look at.
I do feel however that such a system does more than make competitor's life easy - it shows the sport in a better light to outsiders. For example those adventure racing converts doing their first Div4 want to see the results online that evening just like in their own sport. Maybe will be enough to convince them to stay...
As to me setting up a setting up a working party to look at it - I'm really not the right person. Being a freelance programmer it would be very difficult for me to do such a job without just getting on and writing it. Getting on and writing it without integration with BCU for payment and the work already done on the Canoe England login would be pointless.
What I will do however to do something for nothing is write a short report and make some recommendations. I am a professional analyst programmer of 10 years experience so I should know what I'm talking about. If somebody would like to tell me where to send it - email or post. Then I'm sure somebody more suited to setting up a working party has a good start on it.
I do feel however that such a system does more than make competitor's life easy - it shows the sport in a better light to outsiders. For example those adventure racing converts doing their first Div4 want to see the results online that evening just like in their own sport. Maybe will be enough to convince them to stay...
As to me setting up a setting up a working party to look at it - I'm really not the right person. Being a freelance programmer it would be very difficult for me to do such a job without just getting on and writing it. Getting on and writing it without integration with BCU for payment and the work already done on the Canoe England login would be pointless.
What I will do however to do something for nothing is write a short report and make some recommendations. I am a professional analyst programmer of 10 years experience so I should know what I'm talking about. If somebody would like to tell me where to send it - email or post. Then I'm sure somebody more suited to setting up a working party has a good start on it.
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Pingu
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Thanks FatBoy
I think the best next step would be to wait a week or so to review other contributions to this thread.
Other paddlers/organisers might like to add comments from their own perspective and try to come up with practical solutions to the issues already raised with regard to payments and cards.
If you (or someone else if the thread develops and other people offer) could then set out a proposal in the form of a paper, that would be brilliant. It should be e-mailed to the Slalom Administrator:
jim.croft@ntlworld.com
and perhaps copied to other Slalom Committee members. The Committee can then look at it and decide how to proceed. In order for any changes to be in place for 2006, the Committee will need to consider a proposal at their meeting on 5 November so time is a bit tight.
I think the best next step would be to wait a week or so to review other contributions to this thread.
Other paddlers/organisers might like to add comments from their own perspective and try to come up with practical solutions to the issues already raised with regard to payments and cards.
If you (or someone else if the thread develops and other people offer) could then set out a proposal in the form of a paper, that would be brilliant. It should be e-mailed to the Slalom Administrator:
jim.croft@ntlworld.com
and perhaps copied to other Slalom Committee members. The Committee can then look at it and decide how to proceed. In order for any changes to be in place for 2006, the Committee will need to consider a proposal at their meeting on 5 November so time is a bit tight.
Out of Darkness cometh Light
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Yester Years Kayak
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Having run events at all levels I would welcome something like this.
It has always struck me as pointless having to type in every detail into a start list knowing every organiser and the ranking compiler that year has already done the same.
I think you would have to still use cards to score and display penalties otherwise you'll have a bottleneck getting results in from judges via tutti. The normal set up in control is two judges clerks plus start/finisher. A card is passed to 1st clerk who scores top half of course and then passes onto 2nd clerk and finally to finisher for time and totals. This data is then entered into a computer and/or displayed. With data pads judges can enter penalties direct, but thats a lot of hardware to buy/sort out. (check out worlds results MK1 results for example of this)
Using card as above, it only needs to have a bib number on it making the organisers work minimal.
Tony Arrowsmith's Slasoft programme is excellent at reducing workloads on organisers, but you still have to enter all the data in. Internet entries won't change this at div 4 events where all the competitors are new, but competitors at higher divisions are mostly static all season.
Phil Gooding
It has always struck me as pointless having to type in every detail into a start list knowing every organiser and the ranking compiler that year has already done the same.
I think you would have to still use cards to score and display penalties otherwise you'll have a bottleneck getting results in from judges via tutti. The normal set up in control is two judges clerks plus start/finisher. A card is passed to 1st clerk who scores top half of course and then passes onto 2nd clerk and finally to finisher for time and totals. This data is then entered into a computer and/or displayed. With data pads judges can enter penalties direct, but thats a lot of hardware to buy/sort out. (check out worlds results MK1 results for example of this)
Using card as above, it only needs to have a bib number on it making the organisers work minimal.
Tony Arrowsmith's Slasoft programme is excellent at reducing workloads on organisers, but you still have to enter all the data in. Internet entries won't change this at div 4 events where all the competitors are new, but competitors at higher divisions are mostly static all season.
Phil Gooding
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eauxvives.org
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in France we don't have yet entries over the internet (payment problems also) but we have an 'official' programme for results developped by the french national federation (FFCK), that is now being used for every single event, whatever the level.
The nice thing about it is that is uses a competitor database for which you can download updates from the FFCK website. This database is updated on a regular basis.
So as an organizer you don't have to type individual entries but you can retrieve them using classic database queries, for example by club. Sometimes at the start of the season you get to manually enter new competitors that are not yet in the database but it gets less frequent as the season advances (and does not occur anymore with DIV3 to DIV1 events for which you have to get selected first)
After that you can enter time and penalties either manually or interface the software with automatic timing system, print them etc.
Once you're done entering the race results, you simply use an export function and send the export (a text file) to the FFCK, which publishes official results on the web site usually the next day, and updates national rankings every wednesday, usually including the preceeding weekend's races
this works quite well and is quite practical
hopes this is clear and helpful
The nice thing about it is that is uses a competitor database for which you can download updates from the FFCK website. This database is updated on a regular basis.
So as an organizer you don't have to type individual entries but you can retrieve them using classic database queries, for example by club. Sometimes at the start of the season you get to manually enter new competitors that are not yet in the database but it gets less frequent as the season advances (and does not occur anymore with DIV3 to DIV1 events for which you have to get selected first)
After that you can enter time and penalties either manually or interface the software with automatic timing system, print them etc.
Once you're done entering the race results, you simply use an export function and send the export (a text file) to the FFCK, which publishes official results on the web site usually the next day, and updates national rankings every wednesday, usually including the preceeding weekend's races
this works quite well and is quite practical
hopes this is clear and helpful
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Dave Royle
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Don't get hung up about entry cards.
The entry cards we have today appera to be designed by two different people. The back is in landscape format while the front is portrait. There is repeat information on both sides. With an electronic, web based entry system we would only need the fron side with the addition of the club. This could then be printed by the entry software.
All other details are verified at the begininning of the year. This could include signiture to acknowledge the disclaimer.
Fees could be paid to the club from a central system so that only one pay collect system is required. A proportion could be retained until production of results.
All it needs is someone to set it up ! Is that backpedalling I can hear in the distance ?
The entry cards we have today appera to be designed by two different people. The back is in landscape format while the front is portrait. There is repeat information on both sides. With an electronic, web based entry system we would only need the fron side with the addition of the club. This could then be printed by the entry software.
All other details are verified at the begininning of the year. This could include signiture to acknowledge the disclaimer.
Fees could be paid to the club from a central system so that only one pay collect system is required. A proportion could be retained until production of results.
All it needs is someone to set it up ! Is that backpedalling I can hear in the distance ?