C2 Ranking to be based on Men's Kayak

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:21 pm

8.1. C2 Ranking to Change to be based on the Men’s Kayak results.
Page 66
Why? We are committed to the sport, in particular to the Canadian doubles class. During this season we have become increasingly concerned that crews we know who have enjoyed paddling in division 2/3 have been promoted to Division 1/premier, and have stopped paddling. We have undertaken a comparison of the relative standards of C2 crews against men’s kayak, and have noted that in promotion from 2/3 to P/1 we have crews who would have achieved 900 points not being promoted and crews promoted who would have only achieved 200 points. The later have given up, whereas the crew that would have got over 1,300 points in men’s kayak have gone on to compete happily in Prem/1.
This comparison highlighted the frequency with which C2s got just the lowest men’s kayak score. The idea of adjusting the score to provide a direct comparison, using ‘international standard’ percentages was then born. Page 34 Selection principles suggest that for a crew will be considered of international standard if they achieve a score within 128% of the winning men’s kayak score. We hope that some of our crews are better than this so suggested 125% as a divisor. The fact that division by 1.25 is the same as multiplication by 0.8, simplifying verification is pure happenstance. We (and we hope the rest of the meeting) are happy for the slalom committee to adjust this number as they see fit. A spreadsheet will be provided to the committee to assist in this analysis. Attached to the original (and available at the meeting) are prints showing the effects of a direct comparison, or of comparison using 125%.
This provides better granularity at the bottom of the division, with the committed crew mentioned above getting 3,000 points for promotion.
Promotion from division 4 to 3 on achieving a result within 125% of the winning Division 4 man’s score.
Generally neutral, a couple of events where more get promoted, some where less get promoted, generally where there are three crews competing, all equally bad/scratch, and one gets automatic promotion.
Individual rule changes listed
Proposed Proteus CC
Guess which way I will vote?

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 5:58 pm

I agree that something needs to be changed with regards to C2 promotions. Events in 2/3 are often only made quorate by scratch partnerships, indeed it's not unheard of for all the crews to be scratch.

The only thing is that the proposal might be too complex for some clubs to manage!

It seems crazy that a crew who have never practised in C2 or even done practise runs at events can find themselves in P/1 even if one of them does quite fancy the idea of taking a C2 down a prem course at HPP! Of course, he hasn't said which way up the boat will be at the finish.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:09 pm

The complexity is not much worse than vets, and can easily be addressed in a spreadsheet.

OK how many get the vets wrong. . . . Lots. but the spreadsheet (e-mail for cpy) shows that some have been promoted on 300 points (naming no names) and those are the crews that either get loads of 50s, or one end pleads sanity and they stop for a year.

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:27 pm

Only thing I would add is that while totally in favour of this, it should be reviewed periodically to see if numbers in C2 increase. I would see the motion as a necessity purely because of the continual low numbers.

seofwman · Post by **seofwman** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:21 pm

Not sure about this so have not voted here.

However the motion need some detail to add to it so we all understand the calculations involved.

Can the ranking wiz kids provide me with a mathematical formulae - very simple - as to how I would have to program this in the Slalom Event Organiser.
This will be needed for the yearbook so it would be a good idea to produce it now.

Tony A

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:54 pm

Formula (in words)
Take final score divide by 'C2 Factor' (say 1.25)
Find highest placed paddler not beaten by this score, and the C2 gets the same points.

Compare this with div 2/3 vets:
Take final score.
Find highest placed paddler not beaten by this score, and the C2 gets the same points.

Very smilar just adding the 'C2 Factor'.

If anyone wants the backup excel spreadsheet, which shows the effects and calculations just let me know (having trouble getting it on the web) it's 205 Kb so can e-mail.

eauxvives.org · Post by **eauxvives.org** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:29 pm

I hope and understood correctly your discussion, thus FYI, here are the corrections coefficient used in France
K1M 1
K1W 1.13
C1M 1.05
C2 1.10
so much below the 1.25 you were discussing

the effect on ranking (points)
Top K1M : 4 points
Top K1W: 1 point
Top C1M: 4 points
Top C2M: 5 points

So it seems to work..
However despite this correction the last competitor in N1 (our top division) has around 90 points in K1M (53 boats), and 200 points in C2 (18 boats)

Hope i have been clear

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 1:36 pm

I may have misunderstood something here, but at the moment C2s get twice as many points for a div 2 slalom as a div 3. Is this still the intention. If it's a div 2/3 are we comparing with the div 2 men or div 3 men (presumably div 2).

Dee

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:17 pm

Yes and Yes,

missed tyhat in the simplification. Compare to highest division appliable. Half points for Divs 1 and 3

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 6:43 pm

RESULT

This was carried without opposition. So start reprogramming now!

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:10 pm

Should help the future. Of course those that already find themselves promoted beyond ability should have a cheap season (fewer competitions entred) or provide some entertainment for the rest of us - At least in P/1 there should be some competant paddlers to carry out rescues

seofwman · Post by **seofwman** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:07 pm

No one from the Slalom Exec has bothered to advise me on the 'simple' algorithm to use for this calculation. (I think to implement it probably needs a rewrite of the Results Print anyway and I do not have the time currently for that)

So I will not be updating the Slalom Event Organiser for Windows in the forseeable future with this change. The user will still be able to set a Manual Points Entry for any class so they will have to do this and do their own calculations and enter them as they print the results.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:55 am

Basically:
Take the C2 competitors score (best run or combined depending on the division). (S)
divide the score by the 'C2 factor' (C2) - {the motion suggested that this should be 1.25, and I have not heard that the slalom committee adopted any different number.} This gives (S/C2)=S2
Ranking figures are obtained by comparing the modified score with the corresponding divisional K1M event. Where a C2s score does not correspond exactly with a score in the divisional K1M event,, then points will be awarded for the next place higher. (This is exactly analogous to the arrangement for Division 2-3 Veterans).
Finally, if the event is division 1 or 3, halve the points allocated. Note that in multi division events, the scores should be compared against the higher divisions results.

NB if you cannot calculate the div 2-3 vets, you cannot do this either - but excel can. I have sent seofman an excel worked example - anyone else that wants one let me know.

Is this OK now?

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:09 pm

OK so early days, but still going up wrongly. Tees preem was originally wrong, now corrected, and Stone Mar 06 should have been
45 E.Joyce/T.Woodhead J16 Stafford & Stone CC 134 =450 Points
210 M.Taylor/G.Taylor DV Maltby CC 168 =33 Points

Perhaps someone could let them know. (getting 2000 points from 3, with only 100 for a win would have been HARD!)

frontman2 · Post by **frontman2** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:34 pm

What happens if more than 1 C2 gets below 125% of winning K1M? Do they both get 1000 points? Top C2s are regularly below this %, so I can see this situation cropping up quite often. This has got to be wrong, surely. Additionally, if K1M scores are very close, it is possible for a C2 at one race to get fewer points than another C2 at a different race, even though they got closer to the winning K1M score.