Forerunners

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:41 pm

After being at the first few Prem races of the season I thought it would be important to rise the issue of fore runners, as many people moan about the process but never make their opinions known to places or people who can make the difference.

But before I begin my rant, I’m not taking anything away from those generous people who do forerunners, I’m not commenting on anyone’s paddling ability, nor that the process is such a bad one as it has worked for many years I’m just concerned that it could be improved, as they are an essential part of the slalom. (And remember this is only an idea..)

However, as tryweryn showed last weekend there is a serious lack of quality paddlers readily available to do forerunners. Not just K1 men but C1, K1W and C2...I think I’ve never seen a C2 forerunner!!

Forerunners are extremely important to some people’s race, those juniors who aren’t quite sure or confident about what to do on the course need someone to show them all the possible opportunities. C1 both left and right handed never get to see which options are best for them...that’s without even thinking about C2s!!

So what to do??? Well I propose something like this....

A couple of days before the race when all entries are in and organisers are sort of organised, officials will randomly select 3 K1M , K1W, 3C1 and 1 C2 (dependent on numbers of entrant for C2s) to do forerunners. (if these people are not happy or unable to do so, another paddler shall be selected.

On the morning of forerunners, coaches from either world class or wherever, will tell each paddler how they would like them to do the course, thus showing all options for all paddlers.

I know that this gives these forerunners an advantage in their race, but its only an idea so far...

These paddlers that do forerunners at one race would not be eligible to do so at another race in the season.

All ideas and comments welcome upon this.

Tar Paul

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:17 am

should they be made to do it blidnfolded so they dont have an advantge?!
joking aside this might be a good idea Paul, the only problem is if someone is seento have an unfair advantge. but if its only for one race a year and the paddlers are randomly selected that should stop some of the complaints.

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:42 am

am i missing the point here???

prem/international races have forerunners.... the people racing in these events should be more than capable to make up there own minds about lines to take etc...if not i would be worried and they should not even be in the top devision or competing for their desired country

there alot of moaning on this forum recently safety etc the standard of paddlers in the top devision must have dropped considerably since i stopped

Dan Goddard · Post by **Dan Goddard** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 11:35 am

I do agree that there are a lack of forrunners, the problem is that most people that are good enough are already racing.

The international standard padders can make up there minds without forrunners but if this is selection you want to feel confident about your choice but one reason for forrunners that a lot of people forget is to see if there is any bias in the course especially for the C1/C2 class. there may be a move or more than one move that a lefty C1 can do forwards and gain a lot of time over a righty C1 or vice versa.

This is shown by forrunners if they are of a good standard.

one problem with pauls suggestion is that in thge c1 class there is no more that 12 boats often so 2 boats one each side is a big persentage. also there are not many leftys compared to rightys. but at least people are thinking so well done!

I think forrunners need to be thought about before the race, i think there are people around they just need to be found.

Dan

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:24 pm

making the choice of the fastest line/best move without having you hand held and being shown is surely part of the challenge, if you pick the line thats slow you loose if pick the harder but faster line you win.....thats competition

Pingu · Post by **Pingu** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:27 pm

Perhaps an argument if favour of (at venues where water time restrictions allow) having more combined Prem/Div 1 races?

Div 1 paddlers of the appropriate standard could do the job (though it wouldn't help with the the C2 problem).

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:07 pm

But if Div 1's are forerunners for Prem then who does the forerunning for the Div 1's?

Anybody who gets to see somebody else of reasonable standard running the course gets an advantage - whether it's part of the challenge to do it without or not. Lower bib numbers therefore get an advantage, but maybe that's the fairest way of doing it anyway?

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:12 pm

Does anyone really care that much ??? Its a very minor set back, and the best approach is being taken....who cares

Pingu · Post by **Pingu** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:12 pm

Hi Fatboy

All div 1 paddlers enjoy a practice run before their race and so don't need forerunners. They therefore get to watch their fellow competitors practicing and also do the course for real.

frontman2 · Post by **frontman2** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:00 pm

One good case for forerunners that is very helpful for C2/C1 is showing whether there is sufficient depth of water to do a move a particular way. This is not always clear from just looking from the bank. It may be clear which is the fastest move, but that's no good if you rip your hull out or trip over/break a blade, which is a greater risk in the Canadian classes than in K1. This holds true for both international and domestic races and has nothing to do with paddler ability.

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:08 pm

The only concern I really had was making it fair for all parts of the sport (as Dan was talking about), and trying to not give other paddlers an advantage at the same time.

What’s your point? first "guest"; saying that forerunners are done at internationals and prems? Surely if forerunners are important for world cups and the worlds, then this is even more reason to have forerunners at domestic races?? If the best in the world need forerunners, then those who aren’t quite there need them also?
And I’ll ignore your comment about the standard of the top divisions...

I think having more joint div1 and prem races is a good idea, as prem paddlers could watch the top end of div1’2 practice run or even first run?? However, the problem would still be there when there is only a prem race.

Has any got any more suggestions to how they could be better run?? Or do you think its simply down to not thinking about forerunners at the last minute??

I know the old saying of “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”, but I’m suggesting that it may well be improved....

FatBoy · Post by **FatBoy** » Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:18 pm

Yes Div 1's have a practice run but it's useful to see people do the course before the practice run for all the same reasons.

If you're a low number div 1 then you get an advantage by the fact you'll see some of the pitfalls of the course you can't see from the bank before your practice run (water depth a particular problem for us larger paddlers). The high numbered bibs (me) only see this after the practice run with no time to put it into effect before first real run. Now I concede this isn't as bad as throwing away a first real run, particularly with cumulative times, but it's the same question in my eyes.

fison · Post by **fison** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:12 pm

hello people

My new sport of fore runners i can do as have done 2 for races this year and enjoy them as only have to paddle for 20sec or so. how about getting a select group of for runners pay them petrol cost etc and let them do all the for runners etc. they could also do a bit of judge ing etc if they stay for the weekend or day.

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:20 pm

Probably worth a lot more debate, as has been pointed out the main guys to do the forerunner justice are the same guys that will be running in the competition. No disrespect but as I know that at least 2 of the more venerable members of Division 2 have been approached as potential forerunners for Tully premier I am not too sure what the benefits would be. Not only am I very definitely old school I doubt if I could pull off half the crux moves anywhere near the race line as I haven't trained seriously for over 20 years (and about 2-3 stone).

Is there a case as Fison suggests that we should approach some of the more recently retired experts and offer them a position as a forerunner group ?

We should not be lulled into comparisons with Internationals, there are usually several paddlers who have just missed the cut keen to demonstrate that they can still meet the grade. Domestically is quite different and it does come down to a compromise with some getting an option to run in advance or the use of available paddlers?

I think this debate could run for some time yet....