At the weekend all paddlers had to judge in order for the race to ahead! Not a problem as the rules state if required paddlers may have to judge! However, the organisation of the judging was terrible. We were told that we had a section to judge for a certain category and we had to sort out who was judging at what time! As it turned out for the morning session every 1 turned up at the same time to judge! So we sorted out who was doing what!
However, in the afternoon I turned up early and relieved the judge after the 10 minutes we agreed. I ended up stuck on the position for a further 45-50 minutes in the baking sun 30 minutes before my own run!!
Can I suggest that in future that if paddlers are required to judge a list is placed with each paddlers name the judging position and the time on it(10 min job) at control. Paddlers can then report to control and their names can be ticked off then those that dont turn up can be disqualified from the event!
I managed to get to my second run and warm up but I cant help wondering if that extra 40 mins in the sun cost me 1st place. Anyway hope organisers (who im not having a go at as with out them we wouldnt have events) can take on board what has been suggested for future events.
Judging at Notts
I would agree that the system for organising the judging was not satisfactory. As it happens, we managed to sort things out reasonably well on our section.
We had a Premier and a Division 1 event running on the same day, and in this day and age, you will not find many division 2 paddlers wanting to practice on a Premier course on HPP, so the situation should have been predicted and a plan in place.
This situation is yet another sad reflection of the decline of our sport. At one time division 2 was a seriously competitive division, and an excellent source of judges for the top divisions, wheras now there is barely anybody in the division capable of paddling on our top courses.
Until something serious is done about increasing participation in the lower divisions, the solution to the judging problem is to avoid having the Premier and the Div 1 race on the same day.
We had a Premier and a Division 1 event running on the same day, and in this day and age, you will not find many division 2 paddlers wanting to practice on a Premier course on HPP, so the situation should have been predicted and a plan in place.
This situation is yet another sad reflection of the decline of our sport. At one time division 2 was a seriously competitive division, and an excellent source of judges for the top divisions, wheras now there is barely anybody in the division capable of paddling on our top courses.
Until something serious is done about increasing participation in the lower divisions, the solution to the judging problem is to avoid having the Premier and the Div 1 race on the same day.
davebrads wrote:,,,,At one time division 2 was a seriously competitive division, and an excellent source of judges for the top divisions, wheras now there is barely anybody in the division capable of paddling on our top courses.
Until something serious is done about increasing participation in the lower divisions,
Hi Dave
I think you will find that the lower divisions are still very competitive, the problem comes as you so rightly say about paddlers from these divisions not being capable to paddle these courses.
Unless the youngsters of today are trained in white water awareness and technique rather than just slalom this will continue to be the case. Clubs should be teaching general paddling skills not just slalom!
There are a lot more Div 2/3/4 paddlers than there are Div 1/Prem, the trouble is that promotion into Div 1 can be obtained by paddling relativly 'flat water' and it comes as a big jump when you see the likes of HPP, Tryweryn, Tully etc.
Perhaps if the clubs were encouraged more to teach ww skills we may see some of the lower div paddlers attending these events and helping out in exchange for judges runs, there again it would also help the organisers that the people that said they would help and put their names down actually turned up on the day
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
I agree we need to try and continue to increase participation but we also need as Geebs says to increase the ability of paddlers. There are also far to many div 2 events so it appears not many competiors and easy to be promoted. Also is it realistic to run a Div 2 on a Div 4 course little chance of gaining good experience??? There is a competition review about to take place so comments when discussion documents are published will be very welcome.
Everyone will have the chance to have some input and the final draft will hopefully be up for discussion at the ACM with moitions to impliment any necessary changes.
Any suggestions from clubs or individuals as how we can continue the increased paricipation (last year up by 17%) wiould be greatly welcomed.
Everyone will have the chance to have some input and the final draft will hopefully be up for discussion at the ACM with moitions to impliment any necessary changes.
Any suggestions from clubs or individuals as how we can continue the increased paricipation (last year up by 17%) wiould be greatly welcomed.
For the majority of paddlers, a parents, partner or some other kind of support normally attends from what i could tell, surely the number parents and other paddlers personal support would have been more than adequate in providing judging cover if they had actually come forward, its a shame they don’t/did not.
However apologies if I have missed the point or there genuinely wasn’t enough parents/partners to cover.
However apologies if I have missed the point or there genuinely wasn’t enough parents/partners to cover.
The standard of the paddlers in the divisions is a down to the numbers coming into the sport, not the coaching they are given. We have lost the pyramid structure in the lower divisions, and we have also lost one of our divisions, which means that it is easier to get promoted than it used to be. I would suggest that the division 3 is equivalent to division 4 in the past, division 2 is equivalent to division 3, and at least the bottom half of division 1 is equivalent to division 2, and I don't think I am fast enough to race in the old Premier division.
Very few paddlers managed to get to division 1 within the first two years, and those that did were exceptional, and had the skills to cope, whereas now it is the norm, but we are still racing on the same courses.
There did used to be a division 3 race at Nottingham when it first opened, but there were very few paddlers that could cope with it, and it was dropped fairly early on. So it is unreasonable to expect division 2 paddlers to have the ability to race on Nottingham.
We have two solutions to the problem:
1) We accept that current situation, and do nothing proactive to increase participation, in which case we stop running division 1 and premier races on the same day.
2) We finally wake up to the fact that our sport will die unless some proper funding and direction is given to get more paddlers into the sport.
Participation may have been up 17% last year, but from the races I have been to this year, I get the impression that participation has fallen below that of even 2004. I may be wrong, but do we have to wait to the end of the year before we do anything about it.
Very few paddlers managed to get to division 1 within the first two years, and those that did were exceptional, and had the skills to cope, whereas now it is the norm, but we are still racing on the same courses.
There did used to be a division 3 race at Nottingham when it first opened, but there were very few paddlers that could cope with it, and it was dropped fairly early on. So it is unreasonable to expect division 2 paddlers to have the ability to race on Nottingham.
We have two solutions to the problem:
1) We accept that current situation, and do nothing proactive to increase participation, in which case we stop running division 1 and premier races on the same day.
2) We finally wake up to the fact that our sport will die unless some proper funding and direction is given to get more paddlers into the sport.
Participation may have been up 17% last year, but from the races I have been to this year, I get the impression that participation has fallen below that of even 2004. I may be wrong, but do we have to wait to the end of the year before we do anything about it.
I agree with Dave that the standard in the divisions is down on what it used to be. Certainly the lower end of prem and middle order in div 1. I also agree that it is a numbers thing and the same number of athletes are not competing in events.
However, i dont know the solution to the problem. I do believe that freestyle boat designs have a great deal to do with it. It used to be that the only plastic boats available were rotobats or the like, big heavy round things not the most inspiring of things to paddle. But slalom boats had edges and were more responsive. With the new freestlye boats they are better in terms of design more comfortable and easier to paddle.
I also belive that time on the water is now an issue at a prem you can have 2 runs 0f 90-100 seconds. Is this worth the entry fee and the travel expenses. If you go to a freestyle event you can have pretty much unlimited water time!
It also appears that extreme sports such as skating, snowboarding and surfing are becoming more popular and the freestyle kayaking is placed in the same category.
As I said earlier I dont have the answers but we are on a decline if not still in numbers then in performance.
However, i dont know the solution to the problem. I do believe that freestyle boat designs have a great deal to do with it. It used to be that the only plastic boats available were rotobats or the like, big heavy round things not the most inspiring of things to paddle. But slalom boats had edges and were more responsive. With the new freestlye boats they are better in terms of design more comfortable and easier to paddle.
I also belive that time on the water is now an issue at a prem you can have 2 runs 0f 90-100 seconds. Is this worth the entry fee and the travel expenses. If you go to a freestyle event you can have pretty much unlimited water time!
It also appears that extreme sports such as skating, snowboarding and surfing are becoming more popular and the freestyle kayaking is placed in the same category.
As I said earlier I dont have the answers but we are on a decline if not still in numbers then in performance.
In freestyle you get two 45 second runs! (unless you get through to the final, but this has never happened to me)
Of course, they only use one feature, so at HPP the rest of the course is open for general use, but you would be surprised how few people take advantage of this. And this doesn't apply to say Hurley, where there is only on feature anyway.
But we are not really competing against freestyle - they don't really absorb many paddlers; it's a much smaller sport, at least as a competitive sport, than slalom. We are competing against general recreational paddling, which perversely is returning to big round barges again!
I don't believe that it is water time. I am quite sure that most slalom paddlers get far more time on the water than nearly all the recreational paddlers, after all, we spend a lot of our time training for the events. I think it is more to do with convincing people that it is good to race in a competitive discipline.
Of course, they only use one feature, so at HPP the rest of the course is open for general use, but you would be surprised how few people take advantage of this. And this doesn't apply to say Hurley, where there is only on feature anyway.
But we are not really competing against freestyle - they don't really absorb many paddlers; it's a much smaller sport, at least as a competitive sport, than slalom. We are competing against general recreational paddling, which perversely is returning to big round barges again!
I don't believe that it is water time. I am quite sure that most slalom paddlers get far more time on the water than nearly all the recreational paddlers, after all, we spend a lot of our time training for the events. I think it is more to do with convincing people that it is good to race in a competitive discipline.
Geebs wrote:Unless the youngsters of today are trained in white water awareness and technique rather than just slalom this will continue to be the case. Clubs should be teaching general paddling skills not just slalom!
A number of issues here:
- More choice, as mikey says
- increase in general river running / creeking / playboating
- More specialised boats - you can't do slalom and river running etc. without having a minimum of 2 boats. In the past you could do everything with the one boat.
- More specialised clubs
... and so on.
John Kent
Geebs wrote: ... the problem comes as you so rightly say about paddlers from these divisions not being capable to paddle these courses.
Not Judging at Notts but continuing the topics of participation and promotion.
On a number of threads (this one and Compulsory Airbags for example) there has been reference to the fact that paddlers get promoted before they have gained sufficient skills for the water they are about to experience. This is usually about Div 2 to Div 1. It also happens from Div 4 to Div 3. There are so few paddlers in some Div 4 events that on Double events, on the Saturday the better paddlers get promoted to Div 3. That's OK. On the Sunday it's generally the same group and a second set get promoted. In many cases they get promoted after their first weekend and are neither ready to experience the higher division nor ready to commit to the BCU. They are expected to join the BCU and paddle in Div 3, but that just puts them off and we don't see them again. Should they not still be permitted to remain in Div 4 until they are ready?
John Kent
Just a quick reply as we are going off topic, there are 220 K1 men in Div3 and 83 ladies that have applied for bibs this year, yes I agree apart from the odd event at HPP or the Washburn most events for Div 2/3/4 are held on the same water so there is no real differance within the divisions, until you reach Div1.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
The jump from Div 2 to Div 1 is nothing new, I first started paddling slalom in 93 and it was the same then. You go from free practise on flater water to not much practise on harder water. Jump from best 3 to best 5 etc etc. There's a hard line there and has been for many years. How to solve it is another question, but the facts are the same. If anything it's easier now because there are a few Div1/2 races on middling water like Llandysul in Autumn and Tully in summer.
Getting promoted to Div 1 is easier than it was then - I'm proof - I was never Div 1 back then! On the other hand it will be because we have one less division, so everything is a little bit compacted hence I jump from the top of Div 2 to the bottom of Div 1.
Easier races on flatter water are nothing new. There always used to be Div 1's at Mile End Mill which were relatively easy. Yes there used to be a Div4/5 at HPP but the water was turned right down. The "hard" Div 2's at HPP and Serpent's Tail etc always had some missing names who didn't like the bigger water. Nothing has changed here.
Not having enough judges at some events is nothing new either. Div 1 at Bala Mill in 95 competitors had to judge. But the same factor applies - I think there was a Prem on Graveyard or Intl section so where are the judges going to come from? Basically if you're going to have a Div 1 and Prem race on the same day you're not going to get enough judges to cover all the gate judge positions.
Personally speaking I feel Prem/1 races are a nightmare. No judges to judge, no judges to watch practise the course, early start/late finish. The only reason I can see to have Prem/1 is to max the income compared to the cost of sole hire?
It's also a bit confusing saying we should get slalom paddlers to do more white water. I agree there are a number in Div1 who need more practise, but in the time I've been paddling we've seen a decline in slalom in favour of playboating (cool factor?) - so which do we want? If there are those who are fit enough/talented enough to get to Div 1 quickly surely we need to help them with WW skills rather than chastise the system that promoted them (of course for most they do get this help, hopefully before they're put off). Not everybody flies up the system to Div 1 therefore it works ok doesn't it? I think we should demote a few more though, if they're good enough they'll come straight back up.
Basically, let's not get carried away with what's wrong with the system and continue to help people make the transition to the top divisions. Oh, and let's not have Prem/1's. :;):
Getting promoted to Div 1 is easier than it was then - I'm proof - I was never Div 1 back then! On the other hand it will be because we have one less division, so everything is a little bit compacted hence I jump from the top of Div 2 to the bottom of Div 1.
Easier races on flatter water are nothing new. There always used to be Div 1's at Mile End Mill which were relatively easy. Yes there used to be a Div4/5 at HPP but the water was turned right down. The "hard" Div 2's at HPP and Serpent's Tail etc always had some missing names who didn't like the bigger water. Nothing has changed here.
Not having enough judges at some events is nothing new either. Div 1 at Bala Mill in 95 competitors had to judge. But the same factor applies - I think there was a Prem on Graveyard or Intl section so where are the judges going to come from? Basically if you're going to have a Div 1 and Prem race on the same day you're not going to get enough judges to cover all the gate judge positions.
Personally speaking I feel Prem/1 races are a nightmare. No judges to judge, no judges to watch practise the course, early start/late finish. The only reason I can see to have Prem/1 is to max the income compared to the cost of sole hire?
It's also a bit confusing saying we should get slalom paddlers to do more white water. I agree there are a number in Div1 who need more practise, but in the time I've been paddling we've seen a decline in slalom in favour of playboating (cool factor?) - so which do we want? If there are those who are fit enough/talented enough to get to Div 1 quickly surely we need to help them with WW skills rather than chastise the system that promoted them (of course for most they do get this help, hopefully before they're put off). Not everybody flies up the system to Div 1 therefore it works ok doesn't it? I think we should demote a few more though, if they're good enough they'll come straight back up.
Basically, let's not get carried away with what's wrong with the system and continue to help people make the transition to the top divisions. Oh, and let's not have Prem/1's. :;):