Attracting paddlers to slalom - So now I have to buy another boat ?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:40 pm

The thread on judging at HPP turned into a discussion about attracting more paddlers to slalom.

I started learning slalom this year after years of waveskiing, surf kayaking, and last year playboating. I'm hooked on slalom but could only have got into div 2 with a short second hand boat. The old 4m boats are no fun to turn, and my playboat would have been too slow.

My playboating friends dabble in slalom in div 3, but must find it demoralising to be 'out gunned' by faster boats. Perhaps a way of encouraging them would be to award prizes for the fastest playboat, old 4m boat, or best tricks on the way

Its also hard for a newbie to learn about slalom unless there are others in a club. The rules from the handbook should be downloadable /viewable on the slalom uk website. There should be more discussion about technique and equipment (names of manufacturers / feedback from users / advice on how to set up a boat etc). Some more detail about what to expect when you arrive at a slalom site would help. I know there are now brief course descriptions, but you can't expect people to travel if they can't see what the campsite looks like / whether there will be food / whether its safe for small children etc

I can think of several friends in div3 who would paddle slalom more often if they could paddle their playboat at HPP or on the Tryweryn (my main motivation to get to div 2).

This whistle blowing lark, isn't the friendliest welcome to slower paddlers. No-one told me about it before I caught someone in my first race. I preferred what the starter did at Langham farm - you can go when the last paddler has gone round the bend (around half way). Surely, it wouldn't be hard for a section judge to let the starter know when someone has reached a certain point, or just let them know a paddler looks particularly slow.

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:52 pm

Paddling playboats at division 2 level ??? are you serious? .....and a sport isnt a sport without strict rules for people to follow, and you cant go wave wheeling down a slalom course to get a prize

:laugh:

Adjusting the prices may help to some extent, what is it roughly £15 for a single prem/div 1 race? and more for a double?.....for 4 minutes on the water, not really value for money in my opinion

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:14 pm

Actually there is nothing in the rules about not paddling playboat's in Div 2, in fact one of my daughters beat all the ladies in slalom boats when she paddled a Prozone 225 at a Div2 event, I must say that it did not go down well!!

"There are no longer any minimum measurements re length and width in domestic competition, however the rule regarding boat weights still applies."

But seriously, you can not expect a playboat to perform as well as a slalom boat as they are built for different purposes, so you will never get the straight line speed out of a playboat, but you can turn quicker in a playboat! so as you say it does get demoralising to be "out gunned" but have your club got any slalom boats that your friends could borrow?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:56 pm

I wasn't suggesting people paddle playboats in div 2, but allow those in div 3 and 4 who do, to achieve recognition and encouragement (just a mention on the results table would do).

Its a shame HPP and the Tryweryn div 2 events do not allow any div 3 paddlers as there are several playboaters I know who might give slalom a try on these courses.

I've offered my slalom boat for general use, but then we need to co-ordinate our runs.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:42 am

katonas wrote:Its a shame HPP and the Tryweryn div 2 events do not allow any div 3 paddlers as there are several playboaters I know who might give slalom a try on these courses.

They could always do judges runs and learn the art of how to judge at a slalom or provide rescue cover etc?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:32 am

Geebs wrote:provide rescue cover

Providing rescue cover is a great suggestion, and some might even be interested in judging (none have the judges exam though). The div 1/2 event on the Tryweryn (one of their favourite haunts) end July would be ideal for them to give the above a go. One paddler in particular is a good playboater and flat water racer, and I can't believe he doesn't want to try slalom which seems a perfect meeting of the two disciplines.

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:02 am

It would be worthwhile contacting the organiser prior to arrival as they may have made some arrangements already for rescue, but I am sure that most organisers would welcome any help offered.

With regard to judging, I am sure that they would not be thrown in the deep end and some 'on the job' training would be available.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:38 pm

Good point made by katonas about the lack of info when you are starting up in slalom. If your local canoe club doesn’t do slalom, you’re stuffed or you have to travel a lot like I do just for training, never mind racing. I tried to join my local CC, which had been the top slalom club in the 70s’ [you older readers will probably guess which one] only to find that no-one races from that club name any more. On the other hand, probably all clubs have playboaters so I guess that is why most newcomers will go that way. Virtually everyone that I’ve seen start up in the last year have gone for playboats.
Why isn’t there a book on slalom ? There are plenty on freestyle/WW. I even bought a good book on surf kayaking the other day – surely there are more slalom paddlers out there than surf kayakers, but someone decided there must be a market out there for a book on the latter, and someone made the effort to write one. There was and still is so much I’d like to know, but you only seem to be able to get it by word of mouth [may be that is the way its meant to be – passed on like some secret knowledge – which might explain there are so many successful families in the sport].

There are many things that were attractive to me as a newcomer and I think that the transparency of the points/promotion system that many are criticising is one of them. Leave it alone ! [Though I’d suggest that the two wins that can get you 3 to 2 or 2 to 1 promotion should have to come from different venues]

The other point at which the sport loses people is those who have a go and for some reason don’t carry on. If you are not part of a club set-up, doing the whole weekend as a self-supporting group, then the travelling, probably not getting there in time for much practice, then just 2 x 120s races can probably be a little too much.

I read that paddling is the fastest growing participant sport. If slalom wants to gain from this it needs to ensure that all clubs have an element of slalom. Coaches/experienced paddlers who are part of a well-stocked club should attach themselves to nearby clubs who don’t have the slalom support and expertise. Spread the expertise out rather than have it concentrated in a few hotspots as it is now.

Sorry for the essay !

John · Post by **John** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:52 pm

A few years ago Scott Shipley published the book Every Crushing Stroke: The Book of Performance Kayaking

jim croft · Post by **jim croft** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:07 am

??? Scott Shipley's book is still available send a Cheque made out to the BCU Slalom Committee for £12 to the Slalom Administrator ( Address in the Slalom Yearbook)

Jim

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:10 am

Every crushing stroke is a great book. I bought it a few months ago desperate for some more info about slalom. It divides turns into carving, sliding and pivot, and how to combine them when necessary (I'm not sure about the difference between banking and carving turns). There's lots of useful advice about carrying speed through a turn, conserving spin momentum, and thereby your own energy. One of his mentors taught Scott Shipley to use long smooth strokes and work with the river. The crushingly powerful strokes refers to the exit from upstreams which need to be the strongest strokes you use.

I plan to try his drills tonight on snaking on flat water using alternate sweeps and draws (a) widely allowing the boat to carve (b) tightly allowing the boat to pivot. His drill on shadow gating is also great for a club like ours that only has 2.5 gates in flat water.

As a beginner in slalom its a lot to take in, and the book raises plenty of questions which would be good to discuss in a forum like this. Not everyone has the time to travel to a coaching course (shame you can't download and discuss course notes online) , and its nice to chat about what you tried...

This site has some useful video :
http://www.slalomtechnique.co.uk/

Campbell Walsh's website has some great downloads including other paddlers. I put links to these on our club website to try and encourage more to look at slalom (see bottom of the page)
http://www.geocities.com/kayakinhereford/slalom.html

Scott Shipley describes flashy high pivot turns as often wasting time, and yet these pros often stick the bow straight up. Then again they have a heck of a lot more strength and stamina than a pleb like me.

Anyone else tried stuff from Scott's book ?

ps.£12 is a bargain. I bought mine from a sports shop online for about £18

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:26 pm

Scott Shipley's book is a great book, but it was written four years ago, when maybe the Midas had only just come out? Paddlers were yet to discover the possibilities of the latest high rocker, fast turning boats with low volume in the stern, and in this regard Every Crushing Stroke is a bit out of date. Watch any of our top paddlers on a course, and particularly Campbell, and then say that high pivot turns are a waste of time!

Still probably the best resource for someone wanting to develop their skills anyway, most of the book is still very relevent.

An even older book, but one that I learnt a lot from, is Bill Endicotts book now available as a free download.The Ultimate Run, but even more of the gate technique stuff relates to old boats with quite different characteristics to the modern boat.

mwilk · Post by **mwilk** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:19 pm

I bought Scott Shipley’s book and also thought it was very good [I paid £18 as well !] and I have read most of ‘The Ultimate Run’. But they’re not really for beginners are they ? I didn’t plan to read Shipley’s biography section but then found it to be a great read. The technical section is good for paddlers who already have an idea about what is going on. I gave the book to a colleague who was further ahead than me and told him I’ll have it back when I’m in div 1 !
The one thing of Shipley’s that I do remember and use is a tip on improving forward strokes – every 5 strokes he would focus on one key aspect, i.e. torso rotation, then punching top arm for the next 5, then footwork, etc., but at the same time making sure it all comes together.

I am told the slalomtechnique website will be available on DVD at the end of this month. It is excellent and much needed, but as with Shipley’s book it doesn’t address the needs of a complete beginner. As katonas has said, it’s very basic stuff that is also needed, not just strokes and slalom tech. When I started last year, I wanted to know the pro’s and cons of short and long boats, straight v. crankshaft, paddle length/feather, how to do repairs and loads more – even the best way to put a boat on a roof-rack ! I’ve learnt a lot of it since then but there must be someone out there who could put it all in a book.

[Thanks katonas for the Hereford slalom site which I’ve bookmarked. Looks like a great source of useful links. And nice to see that Phil M is still racing. We met when we were promoted together at Bala Mill.]

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:44 am

When I first read what I was supposed to be doing for a forward stroke in Shipley's book it was a bit like realizing I had been walking with my legs tied together all my life. I agree the book is too heavy a read for beginners, and could have been written in a much more simple way with more diagrams/arrows. I just read yet again how to execute a pivot or carving turn and the difference between a carving and pivoting sweep stroke and I think the penny might finally have dropped. For beginners like me :

A banking turn is when you lean into a turn dropping the inside edge. If you stop paddling you can turn the boat like this, so its a natural way to start off any turn. It feels like skiing, or riding a bike.

A carving turn feels wierd because you drop the outside edge to stop the stern from sliding out. This is supposed to carry more speed through a turn (although a banking turn also seems fast and surely also stops the stern sliding out). The sweep stroke to initiate this turn has to stop when it gets to your hip. If you continue it would cause the stern to slide out, and presumably become a pivot turn if the stern slices downwards (stalling the boat).

A pivot turn looks great, takes more energy, can be hard to stop, stalls the boat, but is the quickest way to turn on the spot. It starts with the boat flat, but as your sweep stroke progresses and the boat starts to spin you drop the outside edge, as if you were carving a turn, but continue the sweep to the stern. There is a very slight lean back. Its important to level out the stern early so it can glide back to the surface (its bouyancy aiding the turn - otherwise the stern wants to pop back the way it went in stalling the turn. If you level out too late, then you'll overturn)

A sliding turn is done with the boat flat. It spins the boat without changing its direction, and is often done in combination with the other turns.

If I've got it totally wrong let me know. Perhaps someone could offer their coaching manual to Nick to put on his site, and write a short version for beginners.

Its a shame so many youngsters start with playboats now. Often they're not strong enough to do the cartwheels and flashy tricks that advertising implies they could do. Usually they start with a boat they will 'grow into'. A pivot turn is essentially 'one end' of a cartwheel, and its no surprise that the best freestyle paddlers have often done slalom. Scott Shipley, and Eric Jackson were on the USA slalom team together ! Its great that a 10 year old can rip down a slalom course and beat adults that have been paddling for years, because technique and river reading skills count.

Now I'd better look at the ultimate run. Its a shame I can't put any of this into practice. I guess thats what happens when you get too old. :p