Ratchet/Adjustable Backrests in K1's ?

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good

Ratchet/Adjustable Backrests in K1's ?

I like the idea of an adjustable backrest
2
9%
I do not like the idea
1
5%
Carbon Seat
16
73%
Comfy Foam Seat
3
14%
 
Total votes: 22

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Geebs
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Post by Geebs » Fri Dec 02, 2005 12:54 pm

As most play/river boats now have some type of adjustable backrests, why not K1 slalom boats.

I am sure there must be some pro's & con's but I am interested just as a matter of curious information why these are not available and what would paddlers think of the idea?

The same thing goes for the seats, I can't remember seeing anything other than carbon seats in boats not nice comfy padded ones. I am sure that these items could be fitted without compromising the weight of a boat.

I am sure that I will get good feedback from the more experianced paddlers but would also welome some of the younger paddlers views.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching

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Phil
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Post by Phil » Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:18 pm

I Remember how useless seats/backrests used to be before the modern "italian" type seats came in, there was too much slack/movement. Several sessions where cut short after breaking backstraps. Next time you paddle try it without footrests and you'll know how it used to feel :p

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Geebs
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Post by Geebs » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:40 pm

We have however moved into the 21st century now and materials and technology have improved.

I remember the old straps and the problems they caused, I have spent many a happy time at the side of a river trying to fix them.

But lets look to the future and new ideas :;):
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jke
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Post by jke » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:56 am

Phil wrote:I Remember how useless seats/backrests used to be before the modern "italian" type seats came in
What's an Italian type seat?
John Kent

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davebrads
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Post by davebrads » Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:33 pm

The Italian seat is what most people will have in their slalom boat, unless it is really old - they must have come in about 10 years ago?

The old seat had a quite shallow rise at the back to hold you in position, which a lot of people did not feel happy with, and they suplemented it with a fabric backrest - sometimes just a length of 2" webbing. The seat was often moulded in one piece with the cockpit rim, so it was not adjustable for position, although in later designs it would be separate and bolted to the cockpit rim. It usually sat on a bit of ethafoam to separate it from the bottom of the boat.

The Italian seat is a deeper bucket seat, so you get a lot of support for your back, although the early ones often dug into your back quite painfully, and needed a lot of padding to make them comfortable for most people - some people even cut them down at the back to make them more comfortable. It is mounted directly to the bottom of the boat, although most of them also seem to bolt to flanges on the cockpit rim, probably to stop flexing.

Apart from the lack of support, the old seat would also flex quite a lot. This would lead to them cracking unless they were made very thick. Some of them rubbed on the bottom of the boat, eventually wearing through the hull from the inside!

I think you have to be tighter in a playboat to handle the forces involved, but in slalom, a bit of slack allows you to get more rotation in the forward stroke through using a pedalling type motion in the legs. Not everyone thinks like that, and some people like to be really tight in their boat.

It seems to me that you can already get as tight as you want with the combination of the Italian seat and the foot pedals - so the question might be, why don't playboats have bucket seats? This is probably because the foot pedal in a slalom boat allows your heel to extend past the footrest as you get in the boat, and then you lock yourself into place once you are in. Playboats with their solid block type footrests do not allow you to do this, so the adjustable backrest was a solution to this problem.

jke
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Post by jke » Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:30 pm

I'm with you now. That's the type of seat I've got. although I've cut it down quite a bit at the back. particularly in the middle, so it doesn't rub the boney bits. So it looks much like an old seat now. I must add that the footrest position is quite critical (certainly with this cut-down seat) so that you can brace properly.
John Kent

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Dolly
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Post by Dolly » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:21 pm

I mostly agree with ‘JKE‘. I mean what's the point in having an adjustable backrest, when it might upset the balance of the paddler within the boat. This is a crucial point people are forgetting! It might be more comfortable for the paddler; as it will adjust to their satisfaction. But when it really comes down to it, an adjustable backrest is pointless!

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davebrads
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Post by davebrads » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:11 pm

Ah but...

this assumes that the seat has been positioned correctly for the paddler in the first place. Many seats are fitted by the manufacturer, which is OK if you are of average height and build for the boat you are paddling. For instance paddlers with shorter legs will want the seat a bit further forward so that the centre of mass along the axis of the boat lies at the right point. Maybe this is a good argument for having adjustable backrests - the paddler could adjust his/her position after the seat is fitted.

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Geebs
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Post by Geebs » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:56 am

You see my way of thinking is, 'nice warm sunny day shorty cag and thin shorts' slop about in boat or it fits spot on, 'cold wet miserable day winter training or back end of the season' many layers of clothing boat is too tight to paddle, hence the idea of an adjustable backstrap.

The other thing is with a foam seat that is not as contoured as an Italian seat, you can adjust the balance of the boat depending on your weight and the amount of layers you are wearing on the day, that way the boat would always fit you in summer or winter, it would also allow for growth within the younger paddlers without having to take the full seat out and refit it. ???

I can't beleive that 752 people have looked at this post and very few have voted???
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k1 lady

Post by k1 lady » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:27 pm

if it the amount of clothes you are wearing that is the issue then surly thats y you have adjustable foot rests! also this wouldnt change the amount of movement to each side there is.the italis seat however supports your hips but a backrest wouldnt.i personally find the seats comfortable especially when im tight in the boat. also the play boat seats can have quite a bit of play in them which isnt helpfull whilst your in a race.

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Geebs
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Post by Geebs » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:57 pm

Thanks for the post's so far, anyone else with any ideas???

Thought it may have attracted some post's from our UK slalom boat supliers at least?
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kanu.63
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Post by kanu.63 » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:26 pm

Why not mix a carbon seat with a more comfortable foam padding system and improve on the thigh grips that are currently on offer,some thing like those fitted to the recent RIOT Boats!

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SteveM
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Post by SteveM » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:07 pm

Did you know they're only called "Italian seats" 'cos they pinch your bum?

Just thought I'd add my 2p's worth! :p

Steve

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Post by Dutch Geezer » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:53 pm

Just to keep Geebs happy and show that he is not being ignored.


Most Slalom paddlers want their boat as light as possible, certainly under 9 kilos fully fitted, we usually have about 0.5 of a kilo to play with in the standard constructions.

We try and keep our seats as light as possible so that we can use the weight saved to reinforce the potentially weak points in the boats. When the current seat is properly fitted there is virtually no play in the seat, so all movement by the paddler is transmitted straight through to the boat.

When you start looking at the seats fitted in the plastic playboats, all the nice bits like ratchets and straps etc add weight. They would have to be attached to the boat and the attachment points would have to be reinforced. There is also more potential for things to start breaking and the ratchets etc are expensive to repair.

The seats fitted at present are almost identical amongst all manufacturerers, so they must all be of a similar opinion, if it works why risk changing it.

There could be another reason for this post, if you find it difficult to get into a modern slalom boat and get comfortable in that tight seat, is a big fancy adjustable seat going to make any difference, the cockpit hole is still the same size and you have to get your bum through there first.(':p')


Seriously though, if someone can design a nice adjustable seat which weighs the same as the current seat and costs the same to manufacture then by all means come and talk to me.

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Geebs
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Post by Geebs » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:02 am

Cheers for the reply, I thought I would get you in the end :D

It was mainly a question of curiosity as I know that some of the new carbon surf boats are now using foam seats and adjustable backrests and are still keeping the weight down and did not know if this was something that might come into slalom boats in the future.

But some good points raised, thanks for the input.

(I hope you were not implying anything regarding posterial sizes :p )

And a very Happy Christmas and New Year to all our readers.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching

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