Once again our illustrious leaders are trying to railroad a proposal through for the good of the few. If you have bothered to wade through the agenda for the ACM hidden at the back is proposal 6.4 Reinstate 1 run practice to Division 1.
Whoever as cobbled this proposal together as not look up the facts and are telling lies. The reasoning behind the proposal reads.
Two or three years ago a long standing rule limiting practice at Div 1 events to one controlled practice run was abolished. (The fact is this was changed at the 2001 AGM.)
The effect was to change the nature of competition in Division 1 and remove staged development towards racing without practice in Premier Division. It is in unpopular with many paddlers in Division 1. Many would prefer to see "structured practice in the form of team events.
This is the lie bit of the proposal first how many Div1 paddlers have been consulted? Team events are unpopular because they are made an after thought at the end of the event when everyone wants to be heading home. Not all paddlers have the luxery of being within spitting distance of Nottingham, Bala or Teeside so why restrict available water time. Paddlers only benefit from practice so why suffocate those who want to paddle. Those who want to get into the rigid discipline of Prem do not have to take extra practice runs.
For crying out loud get your heads from out of the sand and think about the people who want to canoe and not where your next grant is coming from.
Mick H Div1 K1 M
Allow Free Practice in Div 1 - Get your proxy votes in
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Dave Royle
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And that's the question really. When you turn up to a Div 1, are you there to train/practice, or are you there to race?
Open Practice for Div 1 is generally a farce, anyway. Some races police practice as though they were more important than the races themselves while others turn their back and don't supervise practice at all. With England selection at the last few races, nobody knew what was the rule for practice.
<good old days> When I started in slalom, Div 1 had 1 practice and 2 team runs on Saturday and the two individual runs on Sunday. It was thought impossible that Div 1 paddlers could cope with only one practice run (hence the team run). Then people started just turning up on Sunday and requesting their practice run on the Sunday morning. Well, that certainly caused a stir. Organisers didn't know what to do. Some said OK, others not. It wasn't long before people realised that one practice run on Sunday was better than 3 on Saturday! <\good old days>
The objective of the change is to reinstate some of the progression between Divisions. Unfortunately, we haven't yet dealt with the biggest issue which is aggregate runs. Until we have aggregate runs throughout the divisions, there will always be a big change in strategy on arriving in Prem.
Too many races (with too few competitors) in each division has led us to think that a large part of our training can take place at races. I think it's better to prepare for an exam in the weeks before, rather than cramming over breakfast. Besides which, ultimately, you will then get more water time.
Open Practice for Div 1 is generally a farce, anyway. Some races police practice as though they were more important than the races themselves while others turn their back and don't supervise practice at all. With England selection at the last few races, nobody knew what was the rule for practice.
<good old days> When I started in slalom, Div 1 had 1 practice and 2 team runs on Saturday and the two individual runs on Sunday. It was thought impossible that Div 1 paddlers could cope with only one practice run (hence the team run). Then people started just turning up on Sunday and requesting their practice run on the Sunday morning. Well, that certainly caused a stir. Organisers didn't know what to do. Some said OK, others not. It wasn't long before people realised that one practice run on Sunday was better than 3 on Saturday! <\good old days>
The objective of the change is to reinstate some of the progression between Divisions. Unfortunately, we haven't yet dealt with the biggest issue which is aggregate runs. Until we have aggregate runs throughout the divisions, there will always be a big change in strategy on arriving in Prem.
Too many races (with too few competitors) in each division has led us to think that a large part of our training can take place at races. I think it's better to prepare for an exam in the weeks before, rather than cramming over breakfast. Besides which, ultimately, you will then get more water time.
Dave
I go to slaloms to do a sport I enjoy doing you maybe able to spend every weekend and 3 evenings a week training or competing but not everyone has the time facilities or the finances to do this. Why stop people using the facilities if the water time is available. These changes are only to benefit the elite who are heading for the top. So why impose them on people who just want to paddle challenging courses on good water.
Your second point about aggregate runs in Div 1 would not aid progression. In Div 1 paddlers learn to race which means they push themselves to the limit of there ability and take chances, this is all part of the learning curve of improving. If aggregate runs are introduced into Div 1 paddlers will not take risks they will be encouraged to paddle conservatively in order not to fail. You will see by looking through results that the paddlers who are progressing into Prem have reach a level to be able to string consitent runs together.
The sport is not broken don't try and fix a problem that does not exist. Try taking a look at the proposals of John Sturgess thats where your future champions will come from.
I go to slaloms to do a sport I enjoy doing you maybe able to spend every weekend and 3 evenings a week training or competing but not everyone has the time facilities or the finances to do this. Why stop people using the facilities if the water time is available. These changes are only to benefit the elite who are heading for the top. So why impose them on people who just want to paddle challenging courses on good water.
Your second point about aggregate runs in Div 1 would not aid progression. In Div 1 paddlers learn to race which means they push themselves to the limit of there ability and take chances, this is all part of the learning curve of improving. If aggregate runs are introduced into Div 1 paddlers will not take risks they will be encouraged to paddle conservatively in order not to fail. You will see by looking through results that the paddlers who are progressing into Prem have reach a level to be able to string consitent runs together.
The sport is not broken don't try and fix a problem that does not exist. Try taking a look at the proposals of John Sturgess thats where your future champions will come from.
Looking again at next years draft calendar for Div1 events, as they are spread out all over the country surely no one would be able to train at all sites beforehand except the people that were local, so in fact if practice was stopped for Div1 events this would give the locals an unfair advantage to a greater degree than it does now.
As water time is so valuable and the cost of entering an event is so high, to reduce the water time would be counter productive and probably decrease the number of competitors taking part.
I tend to think that John Sturgess has some very good suggestions and he has a wealth of experiance gained over the years, perhaps a few more people should take note of what he say's?
As water time is so valuable and the cost of entering an event is so high, to reduce the water time would be counter productive and probably decrease the number of competitors taking part.
I tend to think that John Sturgess has some very good suggestions and he has a wealth of experiance gained over the years, perhaps a few more people should take note of what he say's?
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
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- Location: Peterborough
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First a declaration of interest:
I will continue to support it until convinced that the majority at div 1 are against it. The only way I can see this happening is if div 1 shrinks dramatically. To my mind there are a lot in div 1 like me (and I assume Mick H), who do not have asspirations towards prem, but enjoy competing. With the pressures of work the opportunity to go to Tully to race is rare, let alone training. It is teh same for most Div 1 courses. I go to compete, not to come first, but to do my best, and have a group of paddlers that I measure my successs against. To do that I have to paddle to my best and working on 20 year old memories leads to more rubbish, frustrated weekends than being able to practice where things go wrong.
I konow of paddlers impossing their own transition, from those who were in Div 1 and took no pratcice to be ready for Prem, to those who reduced pratice as they neared the top until winning after just one practice
I will be discussing this with my club, and trust that we will oppose the motion. If anyone wants to give me a proxy for this (or any other motions), feel free to send me/Jim Croft the forms with my name, and instrctions how to vote. (PM me if you have not worked out who I am, or just come to <ADVERT>Peterborough Winter Slalom this weekend</ADVERT>)
Talk to the bottom 2/3rds of Div 1 and decide if you want to support this motion, I oppose it.
It was my club that proposed removing the restriction to 1 practice run in Div 1. I proposed the motion and defended it at the ACM.
I will continue to support it until convinced that the majority at div 1 are against it. The only way I can see this happening is if div 1 shrinks dramatically. To my mind there are a lot in div 1 like me (and I assume Mick H), who do not have asspirations towards prem, but enjoy competing. With the pressures of work the opportunity to go to Tully to race is rare, let alone training. It is teh same for most Div 1 courses. I go to compete, not to come first, but to do my best, and have a group of paddlers that I measure my successs against. To do that I have to paddle to my best and working on 20 year old memories leads to more rubbish, frustrated weekends than being able to practice where things go wrong.
I konow of paddlers impossing their own transition, from those who were in Div 1 and took no pratcice to be ready for Prem, to those who reduced pratice as they neared the top until winning after just one practice
I will be discussing this with my club, and trust that we will oppose the motion. If anyone wants to give me a proxy for this (or any other motions), feel free to send me/Jim Croft the forms with my name, and instrctions how to vote. (PM me if you have not worked out who I am, or just come to <ADVERT>Peterborough Winter Slalom this weekend</ADVERT>)
Talk to the bottom 2/3rds of Div 1 and decide if you want to support this motion, I oppose it.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Many would prefer to see structured practice in the form of team events.
I would like to see the evidence for this. I don't believe you'll find many Div 1's at all who will agree with this statement.
Personally as somebody who is bottom 2/3 of Div 1 (although according to the rankings somewhere toward the top of the bottom 2/3!), I wouldn't mind the restriction to one practice run, I often only have the one run anyway (not because I'm practising for Prem, just because I think I gain more by looking at the course rather than paddling it). However I don't want to see team runs go in instead and I don't see an issue with the level of those promoted to Prem and therefore I would vote with the if it ain't broke don't fix it camp.
On the subject of Div 1 practice - a message to organisers: In general official practice is organised so badly that you often are sent down with no warm up (despite turning up with plenty of time before scheduled), are hanging around for a long time getting cold while some bizarre running order is used (again after turning up at the correct time), or possibly the worst, catching up slow div 2 ladies when they're allowed to have practise with the Div 1 men (don't want to appear to be sexist - just relaying real examples). Let's have better official practice - see Tees for example of how it should be done - run to schedule in order please so we can make best use of the water time we have.
I disagree with this statement though:
You will see by looking through results that the paddlers who are progressing into Prem have reach a level to be able to string consitent runs together
The way I read the results many of the paddlers who've reached Prem this year have had quite a few 50's or runs with many touches. Not because they're not good enough, but because of the ridiculous level of risk they force each other to take without aggregate runs. The consistency they (we) have means that taking both runs steady is not something they have to do to get one good run. Take them very risky and one will probably come off is the current menality. However I believe aggregate runs are not on the ACM table anymore, so let that be the end of this discussion, at least for a year.
Team runs are good fun and we never get the opportunity to do enough of them - if they're tacked onto the end of the day they are more-or-less a waste of time as people want to go home. But if they were at the beginning of the day, there would be extra incentive for people to take part, especially if it meant an extra run down the river.
Also, if you looked at the Europeans, there are just as many medals for team events as individuals - how are any of our future medal winners supposed to perform at team events if they hardly ever practise?
I generally don't train on the competition sites and generally only have 1 run practise, as a, to have free practise means getting there at daft o' clock in the morning if you want to do anything worthwhile (ie without loads of paddlers in the way) and b, much can be learned from watching and preparing form the bank.
I'm not a junior wannabe, and very much doubt I'll ever get to Prem and like the majority of other paddlers replying to this post compete because I like paddling on the race sites. The only way I'm going to get better at paddling at Tryweryn for example would be to go and spend a day or two training there over the winter - 1 extra rushed practise run isn't going to make all that much difference.
I think the majority of people in Div 1 would actually get more quality time on the water if they did an extra team run before their individual runs.
Also, if you looked at the Europeans, there are just as many medals for team events as individuals - how are any of our future medal winners supposed to perform at team events if they hardly ever practise?
I generally don't train on the competition sites and generally only have 1 run practise, as a, to have free practise means getting there at daft o' clock in the morning if you want to do anything worthwhile (ie without loads of paddlers in the way) and b, much can be learned from watching and preparing form the bank.
I'm not a junior wannabe, and very much doubt I'll ever get to Prem and like the majority of other paddlers replying to this post compete because I like paddling on the race sites. The only way I'm going to get better at paddling at Tryweryn for example would be to go and spend a day or two training there over the winter - 1 extra rushed practise run isn't going to make all that much difference.
I think the majority of people in Div 1 would actually get more quality time on the water if they did an extra team run before their individual runs.
As posted in a different thread:
Who is going to help the young up and coming paddlers in division one to get a team together to race? They don't always know many other paddlers to ask to race with them, and top paddlers don't invite them to paddle in their team as they are slowed down.
I am not sure people would do team runs before their main race that gives them their points for promotion.
Who is going to help the young up and coming paddlers in division one to get a team together to race? They don't always know many other paddlers to ask to race with them, and top paddlers don't invite them to paddle in their team as they are slowed down.
I am not sure people would do team runs before their main race that gives them their points for promotion.
Having just read the proposal I have one word to say about the above statement - RUBBISH!Mick h wrote:The effect was to change the nature of competition in Division 1 and remove staged development towards racing without practice in Premier Division. It is in unpopular with many paddlers in Division 1. Many would prefer to see "structured practice in the form of team events.
There is no need for staged development to Prem. To get promoted from Div1 you need to be consistent... and to stay in Prem you need to be consistent. Consitency is developed through training and repetitive exposure - i.e. using free practice runs!
The free practice at Div1's has provided many with opportunity to gain experience on moving water gates that they would not usually get. There are other threads taking place at the moment that talk about allowing our future prospects the opportunity to get experience on moving water, and removing free practice from Div1 would limit the exposure of those paddlers to moving water. Free practice at Div1's provides many of those paddlers looking to get promoted with the opportunity to develop consistency on Prem style courses before they get promoted. It also, as many have pointed out, provides an extra incentive for people to go to slaloms by allowing them water time on venues that they would not usually get access to.
On a side note - someone mentioned earlier that they would not be allowed to paddle on the Friday because a course would be put up early. I hate it when organisers do that!
I have said this before the majority of people take part in our sport because they love paddling the water! Also the challenge of paddling the course. Whilst I understand that top competitors do not need to practice there are others who need the time just to familiarise themselves with the water again after a year of not paddling on that strecth of water.
I do feel that this is also aproblem in prem as well! There are quite a few paddlers in prem who do not train reguarly on white water but are expected to race without a practice. I do remeber a race a few years ago where the water was open for training on the day of the race and the gates were put in place later!! This is what happens at most internationals as paddlers are able to paddle on the water without the course! Logisticaly this is difficult but more water time is what we want!
I do feel that this is also aproblem in prem as well! There are quite a few paddlers in prem who do not train reguarly on white water but are expected to race without a practice. I do remeber a race a few years ago where the water was open for training on the day of the race and the gates were put in place later!! This is what happens at most internationals as paddlers are able to paddle on the water without the course! Logisticaly this is difficult but more water time is what we want!
<Good old days>If you didn't have a made up team to paddle in, you would put in a scratch team entry, and the organiser would make up a team for you. A few teams took the event seriously, but most paddlers saw it as a bit of fun, and did not mind paddling with weaker paddlers.</Good old days>chauffeur wrote:As posted in a different thread:
Who is going to help the young up and coming paddlers in division one to get a team together to race? They don't always know many other paddlers to ask to race with them, and top paddlers don't invite them to paddle in their team as they are slowed down.
Having attended most Div 1 races over the past two seasons my view is that one of the reasons for less water time is poor race organisation. "Back in the day" it was quite possible to get 200 paddlers down a course in a day but the operation had to be slick. Go to a race abroad and it is usually the same.
Consider Washburn Div 1 (early Sept), close to 150 entires.
Possible timetable:
Practice 09.00 - 10.30
Run 1 10.45 - 13.15
Run 2 13.30 - 16.00
Teams 16.00 - 17.30
The reality, teams didn't start until 18.00! Ok, the weather was particularly bad but the organisation was too. Too many races do not run to time, Washburn was just one of many.
On a released river free practice will always be limited and race times are dictated by release times. At other sites there is no reason why official practice cannot start at 08.00 and then there is ample time for teams (before or after Individual runs is open to debate). Those wanting free practice can get up early - again "Back in the day" I remember many a crowded river before 07.00. Are we just getting soft?
Consider Washburn Div 1 (early Sept), close to 150 entires.
Possible timetable:
Practice 09.00 - 10.30
Run 1 10.45 - 13.15
Run 2 13.30 - 16.00
Teams 16.00 - 17.30
The reality, teams didn't start until 18.00! Ok, the weather was particularly bad but the organisation was too. Too many races do not run to time, Washburn was just one of many.
On a released river free practice will always be limited and race times are dictated by release times. At other sites there is no reason why official practice cannot start at 08.00 and then there is ample time for teams (before or after Individual runs is open to debate). Those wanting free practice can get up early - again "Back in the day" I remember many a crowded river before 07.00. Are we just getting soft?
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Non paddler
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- Location: Salisbury
It does seem disingenuous to justify this change by saying it is what is wanted by the majority of Div 1 paddlers. None of the Div 1 paddlers I have spoken to have been asked for their opinion on this, nor are they saying how much they want team runs, on the contrary opinion seems against, or neutral at best.
There are a sizeable number of paddlers who have not had the opportunities of being picked for training schemes and attending training camps and the like. Many of these do not live near good quality white water and the opportunity of getting in 1 or 2 extra practice runs at a race gives them the white water experience many other funded paddlers take for granted. There is a danger that many of these paddlers will drift away from the sport if they perceive the odds are being increasingly stacked against them in favour of a few. That would be a shame as the sport needs competitors to thrive and to give the spur to the top paddlers to keep performing.
There is another group of paddlers who go to Div 1s for enjoyment with no great ambition of getting to Prem (at first!) and amount of water time is important given cost of travelling and time spent going to races. This proposal may tip the cost/benefit equation for some of these and we will see fewer competitors at races (similar argument applies to the removing of Div 1 doubles).
Why can't paddlers preparing for prem show the self discipline to only take one practice run? It does not need to be enforced to the detriment of others.
Not sure what the answer is, all that I ask is that the interests of the non-funded paddlers are fully represented in the upcoming decision-making as well as those who already receive significant coaching and training assistance.
There are a sizeable number of paddlers who have not had the opportunities of being picked for training schemes and attending training camps and the like. Many of these do not live near good quality white water and the opportunity of getting in 1 or 2 extra practice runs at a race gives them the white water experience many other funded paddlers take for granted. There is a danger that many of these paddlers will drift away from the sport if they perceive the odds are being increasingly stacked against them in favour of a few. That would be a shame as the sport needs competitors to thrive and to give the spur to the top paddlers to keep performing.
There is another group of paddlers who go to Div 1s for enjoyment with no great ambition of getting to Prem (at first!) and amount of water time is important given cost of travelling and time spent going to races. This proposal may tip the cost/benefit equation for some of these and we will see fewer competitors at races (similar argument applies to the removing of Div 1 doubles).
Why can't paddlers preparing for prem show the self discipline to only take one practice run? It does not need to be enforced to the detriment of others.
Not sure what the answer is, all that I ask is that the interests of the non-funded paddlers are fully represented in the upcoming decision-making as well as those who already receive significant coaching and training assistance.