What do you think about practice runs in Div 1?
Should there be free practice the day before and/or on the morning of a race?
Practice Runs Div 1 - Should there be free practice?
I'd have thought it would be a little difficult to prevent free practice the day before without shutting the course entirely. This would restrict the business opportunity for the venue and may not be good for kayaking in general. However, no free practice immediately before the race would be a great move forward for those wishing to gain promotion into Prem will eventually have to do without a practice altogether - this is therefore just a stepping stone from the lower divisions.
It does happen!
Many times last year I was hoping to travel to a venue the day before a race to training and get some practice in. Before I arrived I would be alerted to the fact that the course would be put up from lunchtime on the Friday thus preventing me from paying to go on the course! (Teesside and Nottingham are the places I'm on about)
Many times last year I was hoping to travel to a venue the day before a race to training and get some practice in. Before I arrived I would be alerted to the fact that the course would be put up from lunchtime on the Friday thus preventing me from paying to go on the course! (Teesside and Nottingham are the places I'm on about)
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Dave Royle
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Why would the slalom committee be bothered either way. They don't paddle (well mostly). They are actually trying to make the sport better. If this is an issue for you then voice your opinion (which I think you have done admirably) but don't keep accusing others of deliberately trying to mess up the sport I and, I hope you, love.
Dave
I have spoke to a number of members of the slalom commitee and I know the ones I have spoken to support the motion and I can tell you also do. I have no beefs with the people involved but this area is called rants and raves that is just what I am doing. I apologies if anyone as taken this personally.
I have spoke to a number of members of the slalom commitee and I know the ones I have spoken to support the motion and I can tell you also do. I have no beefs with the people involved but this area is called rants and raves that is just what I am doing. I apologies if anyone as taken this personally.
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Non paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 pm
- Location: Salisbury
The poll vote is still quite close and that is reflected in the lively discussions on the two related threads.
As yet I have not been convinced by the arguments for the abolition of free practice and am still against. But there appears to be quite a few people who favour no Div 1 free practice, so the reasons to abolish it must be compelling to some.
Please can someone who voted in the poll in support of the motion or who has strong views on this pull together the different reasons why it is a good idea. There may still be proxy voters making their mind up and this may help.
Abolishing free practice appears to have losers:
• those who have limited opportunity to practise on white water
• those who see free practice as part of the enjoyment of the sport
• those just promoted into Div 1 are not on training schemes and need as much white water time as they can get to develop
Given these groups lose out, who are the winners, short and long term ,and how do the benefit? Is abolishing free practice the only way to get those benefits? (For example getting ready for prem can be self policed and coach led, no one is obliged to have free practice; if there is demand for team runs these can be added to events, this may or may not squeeze time for free practice but does not mean it needs to be abolished completely for every event).
If someone who supports the motion can answer these questions it would help me and others to see if the benefits do outweigh the impacts on the groups I have listed above.
As yet I have not been convinced by the arguments for the abolition of free practice and am still against. But there appears to be quite a few people who favour no Div 1 free practice, so the reasons to abolish it must be compelling to some.
Please can someone who voted in the poll in support of the motion or who has strong views on this pull together the different reasons why it is a good idea. There may still be proxy voters making their mind up and this may help.
Abolishing free practice appears to have losers:
• those who have limited opportunity to practise on white water
• those who see free practice as part of the enjoyment of the sport
• those just promoted into Div 1 are not on training schemes and need as much white water time as they can get to develop
Given these groups lose out, who are the winners, short and long term ,and how do the benefit? Is abolishing free practice the only way to get those benefits? (For example getting ready for prem can be self policed and coach led, no one is obliged to have free practice; if there is demand for team runs these can be added to events, this may or may not squeeze time for free practice but does not mean it needs to be abolished completely for every event).
If someone who supports the motion can answer these questions it would help me and others to see if the benefits do outweigh the impacts on the groups I have listed above.
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
As non-paddler says, this is really a coaching question, because it differs from paddler to paddler, and only a paddler's regular coach can call that one.
As a rule, on the day itself I tell paddlers new to the Division to get as much practise as hey can/want, but make sure they take their official practice run as a race run.
However paddlers who have a fighting chance of a useful score - 900+ - I tell to take only their official practice run.
However where practice as available the night before, I have no problem with their going on, because youngsters (which is who I coach) will recover fully by the next day.
As a rule, on the day itself I tell paddlers new to the Division to get as much practise as hey can/want, but make sure they take their official practice run as a race run.
However paddlers who have a fighting chance of a useful score - 900+ - I tell to take only their official practice run.
However where practice as available the night before, I have no problem with their going on, because youngsters (which is who I coach) will recover fully by the next day.
Non Paddler
Thank you for your contribution to a topic that is very close to my heart (although some people may say I don't have one). You have managed to express the facts clearly and objectively and anyone who reads what you have put forward will see this. I hope you are at the ACM to express your views.
Thank you for your contribution to a topic that is very close to my heart (although some people may say I don't have one). You have managed to express the facts clearly and objectively and anyone who reads what you have put forward will see this. I hope you are at the ACM to express your views.
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
I too, was pleased to see the post from non paddler and I understand his wish to hear another view point.
On another thread I posted “And that's the question really. When you turn up to a Div 1, are you there to train/practice, or are you there to race?”
There are many (too many?) Division 1 slaloms each season and the temptation is to say “I’ll go to as many as possible so that I get the best possible chance of some good results”.
Stop ! Ask yourself “Should I be leaving this to chance? or could I do better”
If you have limited resources, it might be better to cross off the races that are further away, or that you don’t like or are too easy and concentrate on racing at the events that you do attend. Freeing up some weekends and saving some money might help you to find some better quality training at another time, even on a budget.
Judging at Premier events, for example, would give you a tremendous training opportunity and as many runs as you want, as would judging at any event. Visiting a venue the weekend before an event would also be very beneficial without tiring you before your important race.
This is what reducing the amount of practice and the number of events at higher levels is about. It is about increasing quality.
It has a number of benefits for paddlers, organisers and the sport as a whole. If we can encourage people to access races for judging then they are providing a much needed resource into the organisation. If more people attend each race because of the simple economic rule of supply and demand then we will have much better quality races.
Let’s face it, if your are in Div 1, you are already a very competent paddler with a vast range of complex skills that many canoeists will never have. You could now focus on making the change from paddling the course to racing it. Even if you are not wishing to progress, I would like you to have the best possible race, every time you race. You are making it harder for those who wish to overtake you. This makes the little blighters tougher and pushes their envelope.
On another thread I posted “And that's the question really. When you turn up to a Div 1, are you there to train/practice, or are you there to race?”
There are many (too many?) Division 1 slaloms each season and the temptation is to say “I’ll go to as many as possible so that I get the best possible chance of some good results”.
Stop ! Ask yourself “Should I be leaving this to chance? or could I do better”
If you have limited resources, it might be better to cross off the races that are further away, or that you don’t like or are too easy and concentrate on racing at the events that you do attend. Freeing up some weekends and saving some money might help you to find some better quality training at another time, even on a budget.
Judging at Premier events, for example, would give you a tremendous training opportunity and as many runs as you want, as would judging at any event. Visiting a venue the weekend before an event would also be very beneficial without tiring you before your important race.
This is what reducing the amount of practice and the number of events at higher levels is about. It is about increasing quality.
It has a number of benefits for paddlers, organisers and the sport as a whole. If we can encourage people to access races for judging then they are providing a much needed resource into the organisation. If more people attend each race because of the simple economic rule of supply and demand then we will have much better quality races.
Let’s face it, if your are in Div 1, you are already a very competent paddler with a vast range of complex skills that many canoeists will never have. You could now focus on making the change from paddling the course to racing it. Even if you are not wishing to progress, I would like you to have the best possible race, every time you race. You are making it harder for those who wish to overtake you. This makes the little blighters tougher and pushes their envelope.
Dave
I think you are missing the point the issue hear is freedom for paddlers to choose how they prepare. Some paddlers will benefit from extra practice, a practice run does not have to be done at full pace I tend to use them to work out the crunch moves and not race the whole course.
Another point you have raised is you think there are too many Div1 races, paddlers should have the opportunity to choose where they race and on what weekend as a family man you will no life is not just about slalom. As long as clubs are prepared to run the events what is the issue? I for one would not trail 320 miles to Tully for 3 runs on a single day.
I think you are missing the point the issue hear is freedom for paddlers to choose how they prepare. Some paddlers will benefit from extra practice, a practice run does not have to be done at full pace I tend to use them to work out the crunch moves and not race the whole course.
Another point you have raised is you think there are too many Div1 races, paddlers should have the opportunity to choose where they race and on what weekend as a family man you will no life is not just about slalom. As long as clubs are prepared to run the events what is the issue? I for one would not trail 320 miles to Tully for 3 runs on a single day.
Mick h wrote:I for one would not trail 320 miles to Tully for 3 runs on a single day.
And I don't think you are on your own there either, we have been looking this year at where event's are and the single event's like Tryweryn and Tully have been non goers, if they had been a double then we would probably have made the effort.
Looking at next years draft calendar we will probably make the same decission again to give these one day event's a miss as it is not worth the cost to travel for one day's racing.
And before someone say's you can judge and do a judges run on the other day if it is a Prem/1 can I point out I have never seen too many Prem paddlers staying to judge on the Div1 event they are usually long gone! If it is the other way around ie a Div1/Prem then you get more Prem paddlers judging, so you can see why the Div1 paddlers get annoyed, sorry but these are the facts.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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Non paddler
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:13 pm
- Location: Salisbury
Dave,
Thanks for taking the time to reply, but sorry but you have not convinced me.
The proposal is to change something that works very well for some paddlers as it stands. To change this we need to be really confident we are replacing it with something better.
The good recreational paddler who is not training for Prem may think they race better with more practice runs (and they may be right!). By letting them do this increases the race quality and works new aspiring paddlers harder. By not letting them we risk losing them from the sport.
I know there are excellent clubs, like Stafford and Stone, that have good coach paddler ratios and can arrange frequent club trips to the likes of HPP. But many paddlers do not have that benefit and going to HPP or equivalent by yourself when you are straight out of Div 2 is just not safe. For these paddlers race events are part of their training regime.
We have a gold standard of domestic competition in Prem, which only those who take the sport very seriously (or are outrageously talented) can achieve. Rigour and discipline are rightly applied at this level and those that get there will need to be prepared for no practise and aggregate scoring. But it is not essential at Div 1 to restrict practise, there are too many paddlers who value their free practise and too many whose development on div 1 grade water will be slowed if water time is unnecessarily restricted.
Let’s keep things as they are and let the other changes bed down.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, but sorry but you have not convinced me.
The proposal is to change something that works very well for some paddlers as it stands. To change this we need to be really confident we are replacing it with something better.
The good recreational paddler who is not training for Prem may think they race better with more practice runs (and they may be right!). By letting them do this increases the race quality and works new aspiring paddlers harder. By not letting them we risk losing them from the sport.
I know there are excellent clubs, like Stafford and Stone, that have good coach paddler ratios and can arrange frequent club trips to the likes of HPP. But many paddlers do not have that benefit and going to HPP or equivalent by yourself when you are straight out of Div 2 is just not safe. For these paddlers race events are part of their training regime.
We have a gold standard of domestic competition in Prem, which only those who take the sport very seriously (or are outrageously talented) can achieve. Rigour and discipline are rightly applied at this level and those that get there will need to be prepared for no practise and aggregate scoring. But it is not essential at Div 1 to restrict practise, there are too many paddlers who value their free practise and too many whose development on div 1 grade water will be slowed if water time is unnecessarily restricted.
Let’s keep things as they are and let the other changes bed down.
There's lots of very differing views on free practice, aggregate runs, number of div 1 events, single events/double events, team runs, etc. I can't see an agreement in all of this. It seems to me Div 1 and 2 are the centre of the arguments - not many see much wrong with Prem and Div 3 and 4. However I am really starting to see that actually the problem is entirely centred around the fact we're "forced" into which division we paddle in.
I am in Div 1 and by enlarge this year I have had the slalom racing that I want. Reasonable level of difficulty of water and courses, at good venues, and a level of competition for my skill. However if that wasn't the case, as perhaps Div 1 may be changed to, what choice do I have? Deliberately get demoted? Train hard to get promoted? Drop out of the ranking system all together and just do judging runs? Drop out of the ranking system and just do training? Drop out all together?
Now I don't propose we do anything in a hurry (i.e this ACM), but I feel having the whole sport based around the national rankings is wrong. We have lots and lots of races on the calendar which go toward national ranking. And about 5 in the winter which don't (4 of which I can't make this winter grr). Surely we need more non-ranking events that one can pick and choose to do purely for the fun of it? Not just at flatter venues like Stone and Peterborough, but all the way up to HPP and Trywern. It should be fairly obvious how hard the course is going to be from the venue, so novice paddlers would stay away from events at HPP etc. I realise this is sort of the same as just doing judging, but it isn't. Much as I do put time back in judging a few times a year and don't begrudge doing so, I don't want to be doing it every time I want to go and race slalom.
I may be on my own on this one but I'd be interested to know how many of my fellow "Div 1 also rans" would be more interested in this and thus letting the elite Div 1's go to the national ranking races (which of course could then be all no practice, aggregate etc).
I am in Div 1 and by enlarge this year I have had the slalom racing that I want. Reasonable level of difficulty of water and courses, at good venues, and a level of competition for my skill. However if that wasn't the case, as perhaps Div 1 may be changed to, what choice do I have? Deliberately get demoted? Train hard to get promoted? Drop out of the ranking system all together and just do judging runs? Drop out of the ranking system and just do training? Drop out all together?
Now I don't propose we do anything in a hurry (i.e this ACM), but I feel having the whole sport based around the national rankings is wrong. We have lots and lots of races on the calendar which go toward national ranking. And about 5 in the winter which don't (4 of which I can't make this winter grr). Surely we need more non-ranking events that one can pick and choose to do purely for the fun of it? Not just at flatter venues like Stone and Peterborough, but all the way up to HPP and Trywern. It should be fairly obvious how hard the course is going to be from the venue, so novice paddlers would stay away from events at HPP etc. I realise this is sort of the same as just doing judging, but it isn't. Much as I do put time back in judging a few times a year and don't begrudge doing so, I don't want to be doing it every time I want to go and race slalom.
I may be on my own on this one but I'd be interested to know how many of my fellow "Div 1 also rans" would be more interested in this and thus letting the elite Div 1's go to the national ranking races (which of course could then be all no practice, aggregate etc).