Demotions

Slow Paddler · Post by **Slow Paddler** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:40 pm

Please could someone explain the demotion criteria used this season

Div 2
8 men were demoted out of 148 - 5.41% of paddlers in division
8 women were demoted out of 69 - 11.59% of paddlers in division

Women were demoted below 56, with scores of 51,47,42,40,27,25,18,11

Men were demoted at and below 265,

If you look at the equivalent scores of the mens / womens, then you would expect the men with the following scores to be demoted
482,460,452,449,439,387,344,323

Please could somebody explain - why is a man with 323 staying up, when a woman with 51 is going down?

Why are the same numbers of men and women being demoted when it is not proportional to the size of the divisions?

Why are women being discriminated against?

PaulR · Post by **PaulR** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:39 pm

I'm not sure that its discrimination, but i can see your point.

perhaps this should engage movement to have in place a rule that indicates just exactly what each man or women and class, needs to avoid demotion??

paul

Richie · Post by **Richie** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:49 pm

[deleted my own message]

Sorry, I was looking at the prem demotions, not the div 2 demotions!

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:26 pm

Is the purpose of demotions to scare paddlers into paddling enough events, or to keep paddlers of a similar standard in appropriate divisions ?

If it is the latter then why is there no rule to prevent demotion of a paddler who races once in a season achieving a high score (eg. >400). Several paddlers achieving scores over 400 in individual races in div 1 K1M have been demoted. One paddler raced once achieving 675 points. I don't believe you can 'fluke' a result like this in div 1. If repeated 4 times, he would have come 20th in div 1 at the end of the season !

None of the prem paddlers who were demoted had achieved scores over 400. It seems a paddler in div1 could race once achieving a score of 975 points and still be demoted. I wonder if the same situation would occur in Prem ?! ???

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:17 pm

Speaking as a K1W who has been demoted from Div 2, I don't feel discriminated against... I feel ecstatically happy! I was completely out of my depth in Div 2 (often literally!) and I am looking forward to a season's paddling where I won't be too scared to paddle.

Slow Paddler · Post by **Slow Paddler** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:55 pm

It was a joke about discrimination - I didn't really mean that one (hence the smiley face)

All I would like to see is some kind of guidelines so people know where they stand

Old & Slow - Are you going to paddle in Div 3 then? or is this the end of your slalom races?

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:09 pm

Oldandslow can't wait to paddle div 3! I'm just hoping I don't get promoted!!! Hoping desperately that all the div 3 padlers are good! But not so good that I come last!

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 1:34 pm

I'm all in favour of demotions if you're struggling with the water, but the div1 k1M demotees capable of scoring over 400 points in a div 1 race, will win pretty much every div 2 race they choose to enter (unless they race against the odd paddler who scores above 900 points each div 2 race but doesn't race enough to be promoted). ???

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:21 pm

oldandslow - you may of answered your own question as to why proportionally more women have been demoted. Maybe (I'm guessing as I don't have any inside knowledge) this is down to recognition that there are a number of ladies in div 2 who would much rather be in div 3 and just find the div 2 water a bit much to handle.

katonas - I'm not sure that getting 400 points in one race in div 1 guarantees a win, or anything like it, in div 2. There is often significant overlap between divisions! We will see next year I guess.

oldandslow · Post by **oldandslow** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:31 pm

I didn't ask the question Dee! It was Slow Paddler. I'm saying nothing... just enjoying the demotion!

Steph · Post by **Steph** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:50 am

It may well be a good thing if the paddler is out of their depth, although this is not always the case. Some people may have just taken longer to adjust or not performed well in all races to enable them to stay in that division. Therefore when they compete in the new season will be promoted back in a short while, meaning that there would have been no point in demoting them in the first place.

surveyme · Post by **surveyme** » Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:31 pm

Is there any truth in the rumor that the Slalom Committee are attempting to limit Prem Ladies to 25 in total within the next three years?

If so, how do they intend to implement this? ???

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:45 pm

Papers circulated at the ACM show proposed target sizes for the divisions, to reinstate the pyramid structure (assuming no increase in participation, obviously factored up we we get more paddlers)

K1M 2007 2008 2009 2010
Prem 71 65 60 55
D1 122 120 115 110
D2 137 145 155 165
D3 220 220 220 220
Total 550 550 550 550

K1W 2007 2008 2009 2010
Prem 37 34 29 25
D1 51 50 50 50
D2 78 75 75 75
D3 84 91 96 100
Tot 250 250 250 250

C1 2007 2008 2009 2010
Prem 24 22 20 18
D1 25 24 24 24
D2 39 36 33 35
D3 34 40 45 45
Tot 122 122 122 122

To be acheived (if I recall correctly) by making it harder to progress up the divisions, and harder to stay in the top divisions, i.e. demotions. This could not be acheived this year for a number of reasons, just take a look at the Short Season Div 1 paddlers in K1W and work out where demotion would have had to be!

The notes do say must be rethought year by year.

So the answer to your question is 'that is a current proposal'. If you do not agree with it, talk to teh members of the slalom committee, they are around, and/or your club slalom rep, and/or other paddlers. Hey you could <advert> come to Peterborough tomorrow and discuss it with the paddlers at the winter slalom <advert off>

.

surveyme · Post by **surveyme** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:56 pm

What's really interesting in all this is how do you demote more paddlers than you let be promoted in the year? EG. This year in K1W 7 girls got promoted but only five demoted? With the criteria given, next year if 7 get promoted, 10 will have to be demoted. Some of those are more likely to be able to simply race the following year and go up again. Those being promoted (on past experience) might struggle to stay up.

Won't the current proposal simply stagnate the divisions?

Geebs · Post by **Geebs** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:26 pm

Having looked at the figures it seems that the idea is to decrease the amount of paddlers by 10%? that is hardly what I would call encouraging people to take up the sport, in fact it will have quite the opposite effect!

This seems to be the standard BCU edict at the moment for people to enter the sport by dicouraging them, hmmm it is no wonder that there are firm talks with insurers etc to form another NGB to look after the canoeists interests, I wonder why???

I always beleived that the BCU was run by members for members, have I got it wrong?