Discretion??

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:30 am

Hmmm...good, clear communications are very important in ALL relationships. In this case, between Jury and competitor. I think it "reasonable" that an underweight boat is prevented from being used at the start or disqualified if used for a competitive run.

At the beginning of the comp I thought everyone knew they had to have the boat weight checked and approved. I know of several that were underweight and I consider that those carrying out the checks were very reasonable indeed regarding the "fixed and permanent" requirement. I believe it would have been possible for Mikey to add the required weight under or around the seat and for him to take his 2nd run. Possibly a breakdown in communications between him and the Jury is reponsible for this situation rather than any indiscretion by the Jury. And on this subject, as Mikey knows, he was light. So there is no point to debate in this regard. The boat is either acceptable or it is not. If my role was checking boat weights, I have to say that 9kgs would be the weight that I would accept and not a gramme less. Having said this, I would properly advise the competitor of his/her alternatives. Add required weight in fixed and permanent manner and race or don't and....erm...well....don't!

I was using an ex-demo boat that had never been weighed and was found to be all of 300kgs light. I was totally unprepared for this yet two other competitors "support teams" (ie parents) immediately offered me some lead, tape, Araldite, scales and even assistance to get my boat ready to race! Fantastic comeradery and a true indication of the sportsmanship that exists even at the highest National level of the sport. (Thanks for the offer Silver (even if your lad used up all your lead) and thanks Vivienne for a sheet of lead that my local Church would be grateful for!!).

Mikey, its OK to hang up your blades for a while.....just dont get rid of them ok!

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:41 pm

I'm not sure how much systemic absorption of lead occurs everytime it is handled but as it is a cumulative poison, competitors might want to consider using coated lead.

canoecrazy · Post by **canoecrazy** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:54 pm

Well you should of put your boat on the scales before the race to check the weight of your boat like many others did.

mikey · Post by **mikey** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:07 pm

Yeah thanks for that canoecrazy! As ive already said Im not debating the fact that I should've been disqualified, but for both runs? All I wanted to do was to take my second run!

Bus Driver · Post by **Bus Driver** » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:19 am

you should have checked your understanding with the jury mate.
I have checked the details (you may remember i was on that jury) and you were definatly only disqualified from your first run.
Hanging up your paddles over a mis-understanding seems a little extreme unless you were thinking of doing so anyway, trust me, the jury (at any race) have a difficult job to do, and have the best interests of the sport at heart. After all, without the rules being imposed the sport would be open to all sorts of problems, a little like a society without rules, if you like.

Sherpa · Post by **Sherpa** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:33 pm

I have had real trouble getting any kind of accurate weight for a new boat. I am also not that convinced of the accuracy of the scales used at races since so many people say that the 'race weights' don't agree with their own weighing. It would be handy if clubs had suitable scales so that people can check weights between races and there was some standard set for suitable weighing equipment.
Stopping the paddler taking a second run was a bit heavy handed in the circumstances.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:17 am

Maybe manufacturers should meet the customer brief and if a 9kg boat is ordered, a 9kg boat should be supplied. Obviously a tolerance should be allowed for.

I was astonished to learn at Tryweryn that some boats were a whole TWO KILO underweight! Seems to me that the advent of modern, stronger and lighter materials means manufacturers can simply use less when, in reality, they should be using the same amount or more to produce a boat of the "correct" weight that is simply stronger. The materials used should be more of a gain for the end user and less of not a saving for the manufacturer. If you buy a competition boat and it arrives weighing only 7kgs, that effectively means that a huge 22% of it is MISSING!

Maybe when competitors place an order for a new boat they should make this point so they actually get what they pay for. Incidentally, I am not having a pop at manufacturers here, simply adding my views really on the basis of fairness. A couple of hundred grammes adrift maybe, but 2000? What say all of you?

Nicky · Post by **Nicky** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:58 pm

It makes a big difference to people how light the boat is, even if you have to add weight to take it up to the prescibed level. I think that it is wrong to say that there is some of it missing if it is underweight. Having the weight added to the centrechanges the distribution, and means that the nose and tail are light, this is a big benefit and desirable for the competitor, not as you say having some of it missing...

I'll keep asking for light boats, but always make sure that they're heavy enough for racing! I agree that that a heavier boat is potentially stronger, but I'm interested in speed not durability...

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:09 pm

Why is there a 9Kg limit? Surely, this stymies boat development and the use of lighter products. If manufacturers can produce 7Kg boats, isn't it prudent to review the law and allow people to compete in the fastest, most entertaining kit available? All seems a bit unnecessary to me. As the ICF seems intent on simplifying the rules (no penalties, one pole etc) isn't this rule really the square root of nothing and inconsistent?

I weigh 85Kgs, so a 2 Kgs saving on the boat gets kinda lost!!!!(But I can do huuuge stern dips!)

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:14 pm

The extra weight added barely affects the performance at all, while a heavier built boat will have more weight at the ends, and this has a noticeable effect upon the turning of the boat.

Manufacturers offer a range of constructions - the top race boats tend to be well underweight, and have a lot of carbon in them to make them stiff. Consequently they are brittle, and easily broken. This is acceptable to the top racers, as fractions of seconds matter more to them than the longevity of the boat.

Ordinary mortals should look for a construction that uses a mixture of materials that will give more durability. These will necessarily be heavier to give the same stiffness, but you should get a few years out of the boat, unless you have a major mishap. You cut your cloth to suit.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:36 pm

Interesting comments. However, as a designer myself I maintain that the satisfaction of the end user is totally down to the accuracy of the brief. If the 9kg limit applies and you want a boat to race it MUST weigh 9kg. The manufacturer should be able to manufacture a 9kg boat with weight distribution to customer spec. I see no problem in this at all. If I ordered a new boat I would want it as close to 9kg as poss, sat within 200g, and with the bulk of that weight in the area I sit in. I also think there is an argument for weight at the ends as well as the centre of the boat given the need to spin/dip the stern and the need for a degree of momentum in doing so. It is simply a case for the individual paddler to request IMHO

Regarding the question of minimum weight, I have to agree that this seems a rather unnecessary rule. Back in my "day" I recall top boats weighing 11lbs (less than 5kg!) that were built for comp runs only and then only maybe a single event! I think the weight rule may have come in to prevent those "sponsored" paddlers having an advantage in terms of boat weight over those who could not afford to have such a light boat for one event. But nowadays it seems the materials could allow boats as light as is practicable and with durability. But whilst we have a minimum limit on weight, I still see no reason why a manufacturer should not make a competition boat ready to race - so it does "exactly what it says on the tin", so to speak

mikey · Post by **mikey** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:20 am

Boats are now also half a metre shorter than they used to be so the regs should take that into account as less material is needed now.

Spiderman · Post by **Spiderman** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:25 pm

mikey wrote:Boats are now also half a metre shorter than they used to be so the regs should take that into account as less material is needed now.

Erm....brilliant observation that I had totally overlooked! The 9kg minimum was originally for 4m boats but still applies to shorter boats in recent years. That should have justified at least a 1kg reduction. The actual removal of minimum boat length had a far more significant effect upon performance than any minimum boat weight could ever have. Personally I am amazed we still have a rule regarding boat weight and think it should be abolished. It seems the justification for it, now around 25-30 years old (originally 18lbs), no longer applies as no competitor seems to have any advantage with a "disposable" or "one run" boat anymore. Society has enough rules and regulations without retaining pointless ones IMHO.

Martyn Setchell · Post by **Martyn Setchell** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:59 pm

Mike:You were not disqualified from both runs. This was written on your entry card and on a protest form. These were then both displayed at control. Regards Martyn (Chair)

Mr Fifty · Post by **Mr Fifty** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:16 pm

Does anyone remember back in the Eighties when some of the F1 cars were so light during the race they used to come into the pits near the end of the race to fill up with ballast so they wouldnt be under weight during scrutineering.
My answer is bung the man on the scales a tenner so he looks the other way while you lean on the boat, or grab a rock off the bank and stuff it under your seat after you finish your run!
Remember rules are there to be broken or got round. :p