As a spin off from the last topic, several people have suggested scrapping the divisional system.
How will this advance our sport?
How does it work on the continent?
Scrap the divisional system??
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
As, I suppose, the original 'floater' of this idea, please can I clarify?
I am not suggesting that we should abolish the ranking system, divisions, etc; but that we should separate it from the question of who should be allowed to race in what races.
Virtually all races in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, Germany, and Slovenia, and a majority of races in France - what they`call the Regional races - are open entry: you find a KIM entry list which contains National Team members and 10-year olds. So it is paddlers, their Coaches, their Clubs, who decide what races a paddler is 'ready for' and should enter - not a 'system'.
In Slovakia they all get points whatever Division they are in - including at 'International' races - though the results sheet lists them as MT, Div 1 or Div 2. So - Tatra International May 8th 2009 - best Slovak KIM is 5th-placed Tomas Mraz (MT) - he gets 150 pts - last 2 Slovak KIM are 125th-placed Samuel Stanovsky (Div 2 - born 1998 - 56 pts) and 126th-placed Jakub Stanovsky (Div 2 - born 1997 - 54 pts) from the Dolny Kubin club - home water about as hard as Matlock. Both got DNF on one run, and 3 or 4 50's on the other.
Which makes one wonder why we stop our young paddlers entering International races - but that is another question!
The Czechs seem to have a more complicated divisional structure - MT, Div 1, Div 2+, Div 2, Div 3, Div 0. But I have found races at Ceske Budevice which get entries from MT down to Div 2, and races at Kralupy which get entries from Div 1 down to Div 0.
German Juniors do not have a ranking system - races on difficult water do not have classes for Schule B & Schule C (J12 & J10) and sometimes not for Schule A (J14). Juniors at the Junior Team level do get on to the Senior divisional system -but they still race in age-groups. Most races do not carry ranking points - they have annual championships for Jugend, Junioren, and the Schule classes.
The French system is (naturally) very complicated - ask Dave Royle to explain it. For instance entry to the French National Championships is open to Div 1 and to the top Juniors in Div 3, but not to Div 2! However everybody races the Regional races in the early part of the season.
My suggestion is to allocate a Divisional status to each race, and only give ranking points at a Div 2 race to Div 2 paddlers for instance; but still race off one start list and produce one results list for each class.
I am not suggesting that we should abolish the ranking system, divisions, etc; but that we should separate it from the question of who should be allowed to race in what races.
Virtually all races in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, Germany, and Slovenia, and a majority of races in France - what they`call the Regional races - are open entry: you find a KIM entry list which contains National Team members and 10-year olds. So it is paddlers, their Coaches, their Clubs, who decide what races a paddler is 'ready for' and should enter - not a 'system'.
In Slovakia they all get points whatever Division they are in - including at 'International' races - though the results sheet lists them as MT, Div 1 or Div 2. So - Tatra International May 8th 2009 - best Slovak KIM is 5th-placed Tomas Mraz (MT) - he gets 150 pts - last 2 Slovak KIM are 125th-placed Samuel Stanovsky (Div 2 - born 1998 - 56 pts) and 126th-placed Jakub Stanovsky (Div 2 - born 1997 - 54 pts) from the Dolny Kubin club - home water about as hard as Matlock. Both got DNF on one run, and 3 or 4 50's on the other.
Which makes one wonder why we stop our young paddlers entering International races - but that is another question!
The Czechs seem to have a more complicated divisional structure - MT, Div 1, Div 2+, Div 2, Div 3, Div 0. But I have found races at Ceske Budevice which get entries from MT down to Div 2, and races at Kralupy which get entries from Div 1 down to Div 0.
German Juniors do not have a ranking system - races on difficult water do not have classes for Schule B & Schule C (J12 & J10) and sometimes not for Schule A (J14). Juniors at the Junior Team level do get on to the Senior divisional system -but they still race in age-groups. Most races do not carry ranking points - they have annual championships for Jugend, Junioren, and the Schule classes.
The French system is (naturally) very complicated - ask Dave Royle to explain it. For instance entry to the French National Championships is open to Div 1 and to the top Juniors in Div 3, but not to Div 2! However everybody races the Regional races in the early part of the season.
My suggestion is to allocate a Divisional status to each race, and only give ranking points at a Div 2 race to Div 2 paddlers for instance; but still race off one start list and produce one results list for each class.
"My suggestion is to allocate a Divisional status to each race, and only give ranking points at a Div 2 race to Div 2 paddlers for instance; but still race off one start list and produce one results list for each class. "
Where is the incentive for anyone else to enter then? What is the point in turning up, paying an entry fee and racing for no usable result at the end of the weekend. Surely that idea means only having single division events which in the lower divisions are just not viable financialy. Or am I missing the point?
Where is the incentive for anyone else to enter then? What is the point in turning up, paying an entry fee and racing for no usable result at the end of the weekend. Surely that idea means only having single division events which in the lower divisions are just not viable financialy. Or am I missing the point?
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
Perhaps most paddlers don't turn up to 'their' division's races primarily to get points, but because they are the only races where they can race without judging!
Or maybe because they just enjoy racing?
Anyway it seems to work abroad ...
If I had to forecast the effect on the calendar, I would guess that there would be an increase in entries for events on rough water, and a decrease in entries for events on easy/flat water, as paddlers would no longer have to race at them. Clubs would presumably run fairly informal events on easy water as part of a process of developing paddlers to be ready to race on rougher water?
Another thought: if we continued to allocate divisional status to events - for a Div 2 paddler, his/her end of year ranking could depend on his/her results at Div 2 events; but promotion to Div 1 could depend on results at races classified as Div 1?
Or maybe because they just enjoy racing?
Anyway it seems to work abroad ...
If I had to forecast the effect on the calendar, I would guess that there would be an increase in entries for events on rough water, and a decrease in entries for events on easy/flat water, as paddlers would no longer have to race at them. Clubs would presumably run fairly informal events on easy water as part of a process of developing paddlers to be ready to race on rougher water?
Another thought: if we continued to allocate divisional status to events - for a Div 2 paddler, his/her end of year ranking could depend on his/her results at Div 2 events; but promotion to Div 1 could depend on results at races classified as Div 1?
But with the current system if i want to go to an event just for fun and enjoyment & get timed runs for free all I have to do is judge. Is judging such a hardship (usually 2 hours a day max?) What is the difference other than I would have to pay for an entry and get no ranking usefulness from the race? It seems like a complete non-starter to me as events will always need judges and the current system allows for people who want to go to an event for fun to do so that way.
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
I would guess that there would be an increase in entries for events on rough water, and a decrease in entries for events on easy/flat water, as paddlers would no longer have to race at them.
You might be right if you take the current slalom competitors. However, I think any decrease in entries on flat water could be offset by the people that currently leave the sport due to being forced to paddle bigger water in the higher divisions. Also you could see an increase because of older brothers/sisters who are ranked in higher divisions being able to enter events that their younger brother/sister are competing at.