I agree that there is a large difference. I think the Washburn is fast but flat yet hpp offers bigger drops more white water etc. personally i find the washburn easierroodthomas wrote:I believe there is a great deal of difference between the Washburn and HPP for div 2's. HPP is quite flat in many areas with larger drops and quite a large river channel. The Washburn is a narrower river with a much faster flow rate which no other course I am aware of provides. With a lot less chance to train and compete on the Washburn I feel it is unfair to compare the 2 venues because of the number of 50s given to div 2 paddlers.
Appropriate courses
This is probably where my idea of what slalom is about diverges from some other coaches.Spiderman wrote:I think maybe sometimes its easy to forget that slalom is not about can it be done but how fast can it be done.
In my opinion, if the course is achievable by all the athletes, it is insufficient a challenge. Also it is not anywhere near as exciting to watch. Like in motor racing, it is all about the crashes. The sport that slalom canoeing is closest to is slalom skiing - and they certainly don't set courses that all the athletes are expected to complete. The Olympic race was a great spectacle because it was unpredictable - many paddlers blew out. For the coaches (and the paddlers themselves) it must be nerve racking, and I can understand why, after all the time and effort they have put into an athlete, they want to be able to control the outcome of the event. Not ever being anywhere near the top of the sport I can't be certain, but I had the distinct impression a few years ago that the British team coaches were making courses easier for that very reason, but it was to the detriment of the paddlers in the end, as they had to race on the continent and elsewhere in the world where obviously the attitude was different, and subsequently our athletes struggled.
I take Spidey's point about the challenge being different for the top paddlers, but surely at least part of the reason the lower division races are run is to prepare young paddlers for racing in Prem, and ultimately internationally. Of course this only applies to a small number of slalom racers, but there is also a substantial number of paddlers that just do it for fun (like me) for whom racing on an easy course is a waste of a weekend. I agree that there are also a substantial number of paddlers for whom the racing is sufficient, but there are plenty enough races in the calendar to suit them. HPP is one of the few courses in the UK where really challenging courses can be set, it would be a waste not to take advantage of it.
The advantage of training and racing at HPP is that it prepares you for a fast flowing river in a safe environment, yes there is always a chance you will swim, but there are no rocks to bash the paddler or kayak on.
When it comes to Grandtully and Tryweryn the consequences are far greater if you can’t handle the fast flow and you end up swimming. Washburn may not have the drops of HPP, but try chasing a boat if it’s not fished out in time. I know I’ve chased one all the way down to the reservoir.
I’m not attempting to rank HPP, Grandtully, Tryweryn or Washburn in any particular order, everyone will have their own opinion, my point is that HPP offers a safe environment to develop ones technical skills. Therefore dismissing HPP as a challenging course and not racing is a defeatist attitude and missing the point.
Slalom racing should be a test of both technical skills and speed, demonstrating the paddlers ability to manoeuvre his/her kayak in order to get the gates. If the bias is purely on speed, then remove the gates and go white water racing. There is a sense of satisfaction in being able to get the gates whilst dealing with the white water, and something to aim for if you can not.
The courses set on Saturday and Sunday at HPP offered all Div 2 and Div 1 paddlers the opportunity to test their technical skills and speed. Some did better than others, but at the end of the day, it’s a competition, not everyone can come first.
When it comes to Grandtully and Tryweryn the consequences are far greater if you can’t handle the fast flow and you end up swimming. Washburn may not have the drops of HPP, but try chasing a boat if it’s not fished out in time. I know I’ve chased one all the way down to the reservoir.
I’m not attempting to rank HPP, Grandtully, Tryweryn or Washburn in any particular order, everyone will have their own opinion, my point is that HPP offers a safe environment to develop ones technical skills. Therefore dismissing HPP as a challenging course and not racing is a defeatist attitude and missing the point.
Slalom racing should be a test of both technical skills and speed, demonstrating the paddlers ability to manoeuvre his/her kayak in order to get the gates. If the bias is purely on speed, then remove the gates and go white water racing. There is a sense of satisfaction in being able to get the gates whilst dealing with the white water, and something to aim for if you can not.
The courses set on Saturday and Sunday at HPP offered all Div 2 and Div 1 paddlers the opportunity to test their technical skills and speed. Some did better than others, but at the end of the day, it’s a competition, not everyone can come first.
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PaulBolton
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GreenPeter
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2008 6:33 pm
- Location: Peterborough
Hard course easy course etc.
Lets not forget a group of people gave up their weekend to organise an event for approx 140 paddlers each day.
So many thanks to MCC, Dave Brads and the many people who continually work in background at these weekends, so we can enjoy our sport (or not as the case maybe).
Just as an aside if anyone was still around the course 9 ish Saturday night they would have seen Daniele Molmenti (well after consulting my I Spy Book of slalom paddlers I'm sure that's who it was) on the course. Watching him do 12 to 13 was an inspiration.
Lets not forget a group of people gave up their weekend to organise an event for approx 140 paddlers each day.
So many thanks to MCC, Dave Brads and the many people who continually work in background at these weekends, so we can enjoy our sport (or not as the case maybe).
Just as an aside if anyone was still around the course 9 ish Saturday night they would have seen Daniele Molmenti (well after consulting my I Spy Book of slalom paddlers I'm sure that's who it was) on the course. Watching him do 12 to 13 was an inspiration.
The event was well run and i loved the course as a paddler at the top of div1. but i still think the course was not appropriate for the lower end of div 1 and division 2 paddlers, i throughly enjoyed the event but maybe for next year we should have the div 1/2 on the sat then just maybe have a div 1 on the sunday, just a suggestion, may reduce entry's but may cause less of an argument for next year event. but mostly a good weekend
We weren't there, so can't comment on difficulty or otherwise of the course, but I have seen this type of discussion before on the board. I suspect most div1/2 courses have attracted similar comments at some point, particularly where div 2 ladies are concerned, but do think that courses should be aimed at the higher division. So perhaps div 2/3s should be harder to reduce the jump.
This doesn't just have to apply to div 4s at a multi-division race. At Shepperton (1/2) this year we dropped 2 gates from the div 2 course saving the div 2s from the double cross. In our case this wasn't just about making the div 2 course easier - it was also connected with number of daylight hours available. But just pointing out that at any double division race this is an option, not just for the div 4s.
e.g. a 2/3/4 must test the div 2s, although the div 4 event can then miss some of the gates.
This doesn't just have to apply to div 4s at a multi-division race. At Shepperton (1/2) this year we dropped 2 gates from the div 2 course saving the div 2s from the double cross. In our case this wasn't just about making the div 2 course easier - it was also connected with number of daylight hours available. But just pointing out that at any double division race this is an option, not just for the div 4s.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!
I only had one practise on the course on the Sunday morning and i still did the cross just as well as all the other people that practised the cross on Saturday night. On my practise i didnt mess up on the cross bit i got a 50 on gate 3 which was at the top of the course. There was an easy option of doing gate 13 as you could around the bottom and then back up the eddy.
There was a cross like that at shepperton and if anything it was the same as both crosses have a 'messy' bit where people fall in, you can always go around the bottom and on both you just have to go for it!!
As my coach said there is always a 'Safe' options of doing courses and there is the 'fast' option of doing courses so it depends what your wanting to do.....get down the course safely and not fall in or take the scary risky route and get wet? When in canoeing you get wet anyway. Dont you? ???
And its not as if you take a swim at nottingham you likely to break your boat on a random rock sticking out of the river bang your legs on the rocks in the river. Anyway its always to have a good swim down nottingham its a good swim. As far as i know the only injury i saw was my own sister when she went crash bang into the plastic rock things and that was on the Div 2 course.
Well at least next year everyone NOW knows that the course will be hard on Sunday not if they didnt know already this year. Also its good to get the Div 2's to do a harder course as a lot of Div 2's get in the Div 1 and they just take one look at the water and not get on at all, so its good for Div2's to be challenged and to have fun at the same time as long as you keep paddling you'll be fine and whats the worst that could happen you fall in and roll or swim?
There was a cross like that at shepperton and if anything it was the same as both crosses have a 'messy' bit where people fall in, you can always go around the bottom and on both you just have to go for it!!
As my coach said there is always a 'Safe' options of doing courses and there is the 'fast' option of doing courses so it depends what your wanting to do.....get down the course safely and not fall in or take the scary risky route and get wet? When in canoeing you get wet anyway. Dont you? ???
And its not as if you take a swim at nottingham you likely to break your boat on a random rock sticking out of the river bang your legs on the rocks in the river. Anyway its always to have a good swim down nottingham its a good swim. As far as i know the only injury i saw was my own sister when she went crash bang into the plastic rock things and that was on the Div 2 course.
Well at least next year everyone NOW knows that the course will be hard on Sunday not if they didnt know already this year. Also its good to get the Div 2's to do a harder course as a lot of Div 2's get in the Div 1 and they just take one look at the water and not get on at all, so its good for Div2's to be challenged and to have fun at the same time as long as you keep paddling you'll be fine and whats the worst that could happen you fall in and roll or swim?
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Canadian Paddler
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- Location: Peterborough
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Just as an aside if anyone was still around the course 9 ish Saturday night they would have seen Daniele Molmenti (well after consulting my I Spy Book of slalom paddlers I'm sure that's who it was) on the course. Watching him do 12 to 13 was an inspiration
11 July Molmenti was at Ausburg getting a world cup bronze at 15:15, it's possible he went from Ausburg straight to East Midlands, then to Nottingham, missing the Ausburg party, and Sundays finals.
Back in the mists of time, when I started paddling, I was always going to courses that were technically hard, at the edge of my abilities and building my white water skills that way. To me slalom is a test of speed and accuracy ON ROUGH WATER, so I disagree with Spidey, it is not all about speed, its about speed and accuracy. Technical courses test the accuracy bit, and I applaud them. Keep going Dave.
I was not there, but want to add my thanks to Dave and the team for travelling from Manchester to Nottingham to run the event. There is still the option that if you do not like his course, then get together and apply for you own race at HPP and make it as easy as you want.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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GreenPeter
- Posts: 69
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- Location: Peterborough
"Just as an aside if anyone was still around the course 9 ish Saturday night they would have seen Daniele Molmenti (well after consulting my I Spy Book of slalom paddlers I'm sure that's who it was) on the course. Watching him do 12 to 13 was an inspiration"
Who was that mystery paddler?
The man from Staf & Stone walking his dog also thought it was Daniele Molmenti.
If the flag emblem on his helmet was'nt the Italian flag then it could have been the Irish flag (the light was very poor your honour). He was paddling with a tall lady (also very good) in a scottish coloured helmet.
Anyone any ideas then?
Who was that mystery paddler?
The man from Staf & Stone walking his dog also thought it was Daniele Molmenti.
If the flag emblem on his helmet was'nt the Italian flag then it could have been the Irish flag (the light was very poor your honour). He was paddling with a tall lady (also very good) in a scottish coloured helmet.
Anyone any ideas then?
The paddlers described sound like Neil Caffrey and Claire Harrower who are both top paddlers in the UK and inspirational to watch, perhaps someone might ask them what they thought of the course, i thought saturdays course was too open for the C1W selection however sundays course was great, challenging with good use made of the water and its features, i also thought that the div 2s did really well on both days, well done MCC lets have more of the same 
:p I can confirm it was not Daniele Molmeti as I was juding at Augsburg and his start time for the final was 15:27:30 on the 11th.
Re the Div1 / 2 At HP I have only heard the comments above however I did have an email from a parent of a young Div 2 paddler qouting:
“I thought it was a well run event and all the volunteers were very helpful. Despite the debate raging on the bulletin board as to it's suitability for a Div 2, XXXX didn't think like that he just got on with it as best he could. I'm sure he must have been the youngest there and yes he found some gates hard, but he accepted that. His roll seems to work ok though so he got plenty of experience out of it.”
Jim
Re the Div1 / 2 At HP I have only heard the comments above however I did have an email from a parent of a young Div 2 paddler qouting:
“I thought it was a well run event and all the volunteers were very helpful. Despite the debate raging on the bulletin board as to it's suitability for a Div 2, XXXX didn't think like that he just got on with it as best he could. I'm sure he must have been the youngest there and yes he found some gates hard, but he accepted that. His roll seems to work ok though so he got plenty of experience out of it.”
Jim
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Nick Penfold
- Posts: 338
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A fairly straightforward course on Saturday, a tough-end-of-the-scale course on Sunday. Seems fair to me.
It's to be expected that a combined Div 1/2 on one of the harder courses will be a hard course for Div 2s. I'd expect paddlers to pick the ones within their capability and aspirations, and I don't think we should dumb down for the lower division at a combined event.
There are lots of easier Div 2 races on the calendar for those who want them.
It's to be expected that a combined Div 1/2 on one of the harder courses will be a hard course for Div 2s. I'd expect paddlers to pick the ones within their capability and aspirations, and I don't think we should dumb down for the lower division at a combined event.
There are lots of easier Div 2 races on the calendar for those who want them.
Thanks to CP for making the point about skill on rough water, not just speed - it's in no small part that skill that gets you into the correct places so that you end up doing the course faster (at least I understand that's the theory, never being quite able to put it into practice myself.....). :;):
Nick's point is equally valid: not all venues/courses at the same level are the same; we shouldn't expect them to be, and we shouldn't therefore expect to perform equally well at every course at every venue simply because it's at "our" level - where's the fun in that? Or indeed competition - otherwise the logical extension is to create a 'level playing field' ......wait a minute.... isn't that sprint?
Nick's point is equally valid: not all venues/courses at the same level are the same; we shouldn't expect them to be, and we shouldn't therefore expect to perform equally well at every course at every venue simply because it's at "our" level - where's the fun in that? Or indeed competition - otherwise the logical extension is to create a 'level playing field' ......wait a minute.... isn't that sprint?