JD whitewater criteria - how far will parents go!Guest wrote:Too often we are seeing juniors entered into Prem/Div 1 events where they really cannot cope with the water,
Safety Cover @ Tully
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guest
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another parent
I am becoming very concerned with this thread, I agree that safety should provided at all events but for what? it seems that many of these comments seem to relate to the rescue of the boat, as a parent myself I am very grateful if someone rescues my son's boat if he is unfortunate enough to take a swim however he is the priority and if we have to mend the boat or indeed go searching down the river for it then so be it. I would also like to add that be take our parental responsibility very seriously and have on more than one occasion withdrawn him from an event when we felt that the water was too challenging for him (he's in div 1 now). To some extent I agree with guest as we are seeing a lot of younsters on big water which they cannot handle in order to achieve the JD whitewater criteria.
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guest
Some of the comments are due to the fact one youg girl got earache for not managing to get the boat. We all agree people come first, which is why safety is important. Safety courses always say your own sfaety first. Of course the paddler is most important, and as Fison says, anyone can make a mistake, even the best; and all paddlers want to progress. In that process some will have a need to be rescued no matter how often they train.
Yep there were two paddlers who just aimed down the middle and went, but what must be realised is that gates mst at least be tried to be negotiated or JD ctriteria aren't met. So aiming down the middle won't achieve anything and put paddlers and possible rescuers at risk.
Yep there were two paddlers who just aimed down the middle and went, but what must be realised is that gates mst at least be tried to be negotiated or JD ctriteria aren't met. So aiming down the middle won't achieve anything and put paddlers and possible rescuers at risk.
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Jill
It has to be said that not only the girls went down the middle there were boys too! I don't quite understand why parents will put their children on water that they obviously cannot cope with, I agree with the previous post, these paddlers don't achieve JD criteria when they go down the middle, miss 8 gates and put the safety of themselves, other paddlers and safety cover at risk.
Come on parents lets excerside some judgement before we put our juniors on the water in order for these type of comments not to be repeated at Tully ???
Come on parents lets excerside some judgement before we put our juniors on the water in order for these type of comments not to be repeated at Tully ???
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Junior padler
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Jill
p'haps sum of you adults should ask us kids how we feel bout going down big water, and let us make our own minds up stop wrapping us up in coton wool
Perhaps some of the junior paddlers should listen to their parents!! they have the ultimate responsibility and have to pay for the repair/replacement of equipment, if junior paddlers cannot cope with the water and conditions then they should not enter. It's not just about what juniors want to do but what they are capable of doing, they must also consider the implications of causing harm to others.
Perhaps some of the junior paddlers should listen to their parents!! they have the ultimate responsibility and have to pay for the repair/replacement of equipment, if junior paddlers cannot cope with the water and conditions then they should not enter. It's not just about what juniors want to do but what they are capable of doing, they must also consider the implications of causing harm to others.
There's so much talk about the girl that swam, BUT the fact is I am that girl! I have had plenty of experience on big water, I just got it wrong that day (It can happen to the best / anyone).The fact remains, the only person on the finish line was one of my mates, who did her best!
WHERE WERE THE OTHER PADDLERS!-
guest
There were two paddlers at the finish when your boat got there but I think only one followed the boat.
At least 1 if not 2 paddlers followed you down before your boat reached the finshed line. I saw one go through gate 11 whilst your boat was in the stopper, who ever immediately follows you. I though the race might be stopped whilst your boat cleared the course.
Anyway more importantly you are OK. As you say it can happen to the best of paddlers.
I am sure the others would have rushed to you if you hadn't been on the bank!
At least 1 if not 2 paddlers followed you down before your boat reached the finshed line. I saw one go through gate 11 whilst your boat was in the stopper, who ever immediately follows you. I though the race might be stopped whilst your boat cleared the course.
Anyway more importantly you are OK. As you say it can happen to the best of paddlers.
I am sure the others would have rushed to you if you hadn't been on the bank!
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
The post is "Safety cover @Tully"
For me, safety refers to the rescue of people not equipment, so let's deal with that issue.
On the Graveyard, once out of the boat, paddlers or in little more danger than of a bruising (I confess I have been there many years ago). I did see three swims, two in the stopper and in which case the paddler walked to the bank, and the third near the finish. There didn't seem to be a safety issue with those swims and they really could of happened to any of us Junior, senior or even veterans.
Of course, the boats are a different matter and is this why everyone is getting so emotional? Boats can be replaced and repaired. If it is that important, get airbags and/or insurance. Don't think the rescue of your precious boat is everyone elses top priority. If you're one of the big boys you might even stay with your boat and get it out of the river yourself.
The Tay at Grandtully is different. There is a fall below the race site which can be dangerous. At high levels the river is wide which often makes throwlines useless. Having said all that, a swimmer can still make it to the bank by swimming. It's the equipment that is generally at risk.
On both rivers the more dangerous occurance is a boat being wrapped or pinned. In this case two paddlers at the finish are unlikely to be able to do anything and the course of action can vary greatly according to the actual situation. The bigger the person (longer legs and heavier) the greater danger of and from wrapping. The little ones can raise their knees without getting their bums out of the seat so perhaps we need extra cover for the seniors.
Fortunately, Slalom is a relatively safe sport. I don't recall any really serious occurances. I do agree rules should be enforced and organisers can ask for more than two paddlers to stay on after their run.
Appropriate additional rescue should be laid on to ensure competitors' safety if required but don't get this all out of proportion.
First priority should be the swimmer. After that the equipment is a luxury and two competitors (even kids) should normally be able to assist a rescue with the help of the swimmer.
For me, safety refers to the rescue of people not equipment, so let's deal with that issue.
On the Graveyard, once out of the boat, paddlers or in little more danger than of a bruising (I confess I have been there many years ago). I did see three swims, two in the stopper and in which case the paddler walked to the bank, and the third near the finish. There didn't seem to be a safety issue with those swims and they really could of happened to any of us Junior, senior or even veterans.
Of course, the boats are a different matter and is this why everyone is getting so emotional? Boats can be replaced and repaired. If it is that important, get airbags and/or insurance. Don't think the rescue of your precious boat is everyone elses top priority. If you're one of the big boys you might even stay with your boat and get it out of the river yourself.
The Tay at Grandtully is different. There is a fall below the race site which can be dangerous. At high levels the river is wide which often makes throwlines useless. Having said all that, a swimmer can still make it to the bank by swimming. It's the equipment that is generally at risk.
On both rivers the more dangerous occurance is a boat being wrapped or pinned. In this case two paddlers at the finish are unlikely to be able to do anything and the course of action can vary greatly according to the actual situation. The bigger the person (longer legs and heavier) the greater danger of and from wrapping. The little ones can raise their knees without getting their bums out of the seat so perhaps we need extra cover for the seniors.
Fortunately, Slalom is a relatively safe sport. I don't recall any really serious occurances. I do agree rules should be enforced and organisers can ask for more than two paddlers to stay on after their run.
Appropriate additional rescue should be laid on to ensure competitors' safety if required but don't get this all out of proportion.
First priority should be the swimmer. After that the equipment is a luxury and two competitors (even kids) should normally be able to assist a rescue with the help of the swimmer.
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GP
the problem arises when your at a highly important race....IE selection or even in some cases to the majority of top prem males just a normal race itself and then theres a delay for some obscure reason, its a great disadvantage to have to sit on the water for 15 minutes longer than needed, even more so at this time of the year when the weather is colder and more energy sapping
Thanks Dave for bringing the topic back on track.
The Tay at Tully is a natural river and as Dave so rightly says there is a nasty weir after the finish.
The main priority is always the person in the water as they are the most vunerable especially this time of year as the air and water temprature are low and anyone taking a swim could soon go into shock from being in the water. As I believe it is currently snowing at Tully you can guess it will probably be cold at the weekend, it is forecast -4c on Saturday night! Also if you have spent the night in a tent in these tempratures your core temprature may also be low, so it is very important to do some warm-ups to raise this prior to your practice and runs.
Throwlines can be used to useful effect on this site even with the river in spate as long as they are backed up either side of the river and the people using them are trained or have experiance in using them, but don't take risk's, I had to rescue a parent at a training day not so long ago that tried to help and ended up falling in at the Office at HPP fully clothed without a BA!! This added complications to an already tricky rescue situation due to the under tow at the time.
My main concern is that if someone takes a swim and the safety cover of the two paddlers at the bottom are not stong enough to get them to the side before the weir you could be looking at more than one person in trouble. The current is still quite strong after the finish and I have seen strong adult paddlers struggle on their own to get a swimmer to the side.
It is a long swim from the Plato to the finish and a youngster in low tempratures would be exhausted before they reached there, so the chances of them helping in a self rescue are reduced.
So can I urge the bigger stronger more experianced paddlers to relieve the youngsters at the finish or at least back them up for support.
If you do lose a boat it will normally be washed up on river left about 2 miles down stream just by the road bridge heading towards the A9.
Having said all this it could be glorious sunshine and 20c with the water as flat as a mill pond, but the advice is be prepared and stay warm and dry.
Graeme
The Tay at Tully is a natural river and as Dave so rightly says there is a nasty weir after the finish.
The main priority is always the person in the water as they are the most vunerable especially this time of year as the air and water temprature are low and anyone taking a swim could soon go into shock from being in the water. As I believe it is currently snowing at Tully you can guess it will probably be cold at the weekend, it is forecast -4c on Saturday night! Also if you have spent the night in a tent in these tempratures your core temprature may also be low, so it is very important to do some warm-ups to raise this prior to your practice and runs.
Throwlines can be used to useful effect on this site even with the river in spate as long as they are backed up either side of the river and the people using them are trained or have experiance in using them, but don't take risk's, I had to rescue a parent at a training day not so long ago that tried to help and ended up falling in at the Office at HPP fully clothed without a BA!! This added complications to an already tricky rescue situation due to the under tow at the time.
My main concern is that if someone takes a swim and the safety cover of the two paddlers at the bottom are not stong enough to get them to the side before the weir you could be looking at more than one person in trouble. The current is still quite strong after the finish and I have seen strong adult paddlers struggle on their own to get a swimmer to the side.
It is a long swim from the Plato to the finish and a youngster in low tempratures would be exhausted before they reached there, so the chances of them helping in a self rescue are reduced.
So can I urge the bigger stronger more experianced paddlers to relieve the youngsters at the finish or at least back them up for support.
If you do lose a boat it will normally be washed up on river left about 2 miles down stream just by the road bridge heading towards the A9.
Having said all this it could be glorious sunshine and 20c with the water as flat as a mill pond, but the advice is be prepared and stay warm and dry.
Graeme
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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another parent
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guest
yes safety for paddlers is needed. but who is responsile for this.
the organiser- people are paying for an entry to race, the organiser organises people to cover the safety. an incident occurs, someone/oat/paddle is broken/injured. who is resposible? the paddler for making the mistake or the organiser for the poor safety? i wouldnt want to be up in court for that one.
other paddlers at the finish- not being ignorant but why should i be responsile for other paddlers safety whilst on the water. i would possibly be putting myself in danger and the other party. what if in 'helping' i got the swimming paddler stuck between a rock and my boat, resulting in injury or worse? i have actually caused the harm to this other person. maybe another incident which could result in court action.
i would not for one second leave someone in the water if i could help them. but in the blame culture we have would i be doing more harm than good?
the organiser- people are paying for an entry to race, the organiser organises people to cover the safety. an incident occurs, someone/oat/paddle is broken/injured. who is resposible? the paddler for making the mistake or the organiser for the poor safety? i wouldnt want to be up in court for that one.
other paddlers at the finish- not being ignorant but why should i be responsile for other paddlers safety whilst on the water. i would possibly be putting myself in danger and the other party. what if in 'helping' i got the swimming paddler stuck between a rock and my boat, resulting in injury or worse? i have actually caused the harm to this other person. maybe another incident which could result in court action.
i would not for one second leave someone in the water if i could help them. but in the blame culture we have would i be doing more harm than good?
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guest
its probbably much the same principle as first aid. if you are genuinely trying to help someone and are acting within your own capabilites you are OK - cleaning and dressing a wound is one thing, attempting a DIY tracheoctomy because you saw it on ER is another!
i think the rules state that the organisers can ask anyone to help in an emergency, but if you thought this was putting yourself or anyone else in danger you have the right to refuse without penalty.
be alert, honest, helpful but realistic and you can't go far wrong. my gripe is with those who have a bad run and go of to sulk somewhere out of sight - they still have a responsibility to those finishing after them and should be disqualified.
i think the rules state that the organisers can ask anyone to help in an emergency, but if you thought this was putting yourself or anyone else in danger you have the right to refuse without penalty.
be alert, honest, helpful but realistic and you can't go far wrong. my gripe is with those who have a bad run and go of to sulk somewhere out of sight - they still have a responsibility to those finishing after them and should be disqualified.