It is the organiser of any events responsibility for the provision of competent safety personel and procedures, regardless of what any rules written in any rule books or disclaimers signed by participants or any other poorly written policies say for that matter.
Fact is a small 14 year old junior who is knackered from just finishing a run (or any other person knackered from just finishing a run) in the court of law would not be considered a competent person and the organiser of said event would be in serious trouble
the whole situation needs assessed in my eyes, whether BCU membership would cover an organiser from being sued by an injured competitor, or worst case the parents of dead juniour due to lack of adequate safety.
Safety Cover @ Tully
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Seedy Paddler
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 2:00 pm
Qualified to say so leads the usual sensational response then enquires if there is suitable insurance cover.
1. It is clearly stated in the various BCU procedures that there are requirements and obligations on the organiser, paddler and other competitors. In a court of law the definition of such cover would require some form of presentation by an Expert Witness as Legal qualifications do not provide competence in Canoe safety. It is therefore very likely that such expert witness will be provided through the BCU (as in previous cases). therefore the rule books do count and the fact that those who will compete at Tully will not be novitiates but have been party to the rules, regulations and requirements therein for at least one year.
2/ You (or a parent) have a responsibility for yourself ( or offspring), you assess the situation and make the decision. We ramble about the JD requirements and those under 14s but the JD Criteria extend over the season for such Juniors. Why risk yourself early in the season, if you are up for the week try out the water with appropriate support, you will still have plenty of time to gain the criteria before October and make any development squad. Get put off by a cold swim and lose the boat and you may not want to paddle again before October. I have over 30 years white water experience and yes I will walk away if I do not feel up to it even though I may have paddled the section many times before. Natural river courses evolve over thousands of years, you may only have three score and ten, the river will be there long after you have gone, try to stay around for as long as possuble!
3/ Yes the organisers must have insurance and on various discussions over the years with the broker it would be in place to cover such an incident at such an organised event. However the onus would be to prove negligence on behalf of the Organiser - see 1 above.
It seems the Organiser at Tully has already been condemned based on events in August (different organisation) and events at the Tryweryn. Tully is difficult to bank protect due to the nature of the site, wide river, North Bank covered in bushes & trees, relatively straight run through by the main currents. Most likely that any swim will involve banking down by the bridge. Yes there is the bottom fall, but the only time I am aware of competing slalomists swimming that fall during competition dates back to the 60's early 70's when the finish was below the fall. However I would accept to never saying never.
I will admit that my initial reaction to the chain was to remember to take the big river boat and consider volunteering for safety cover during the event. However having seen some of the sanctimonious pontificating and the rabid threats of litigation my tendency now is to leave alone. Why put myself out for someone who lacks any appreciation for what those who do get involved actually undertake and attempt to provide!
My understanding from those currently in know is that Safety Cover is planned for the events, however as with all events they are desperately short of volunteers. even if you cannot provide safety cover perhaps you could allow someone who can provide the safety cover whilst you assist with judging, administration, boat & equipment vetting etc. the more limited the resources the more matters will be prioritised to the point that if there are insufficient resources the event should be cancelled and I couldn't imagine the posting trail if that happened.
Have fun, look out for #1 and know your limitations. Your desire for an adrenaline rush should not provide the catalyst for someone elses injury.
1. It is clearly stated in the various BCU procedures that there are requirements and obligations on the organiser, paddler and other competitors. In a court of law the definition of such cover would require some form of presentation by an Expert Witness as Legal qualifications do not provide competence in Canoe safety. It is therefore very likely that such expert witness will be provided through the BCU (as in previous cases). therefore the rule books do count and the fact that those who will compete at Tully will not be novitiates but have been party to the rules, regulations and requirements therein for at least one year.
2/ You (or a parent) have a responsibility for yourself ( or offspring), you assess the situation and make the decision. We ramble about the JD requirements and those under 14s but the JD Criteria extend over the season for such Juniors. Why risk yourself early in the season, if you are up for the week try out the water with appropriate support, you will still have plenty of time to gain the criteria before October and make any development squad. Get put off by a cold swim and lose the boat and you may not want to paddle again before October. I have over 30 years white water experience and yes I will walk away if I do not feel up to it even though I may have paddled the section many times before. Natural river courses evolve over thousands of years, you may only have three score and ten, the river will be there long after you have gone, try to stay around for as long as possuble!
3/ Yes the organisers must have insurance and on various discussions over the years with the broker it would be in place to cover such an incident at such an organised event. However the onus would be to prove negligence on behalf of the Organiser - see 1 above.
It seems the Organiser at Tully has already been condemned based on events in August (different organisation) and events at the Tryweryn. Tully is difficult to bank protect due to the nature of the site, wide river, North Bank covered in bushes & trees, relatively straight run through by the main currents. Most likely that any swim will involve banking down by the bridge. Yes there is the bottom fall, but the only time I am aware of competing slalomists swimming that fall during competition dates back to the 60's early 70's when the finish was below the fall. However I would accept to never saying never.
I will admit that my initial reaction to the chain was to remember to take the big river boat and consider volunteering for safety cover during the event. However having seen some of the sanctimonious pontificating and the rabid threats of litigation my tendency now is to leave alone. Why put myself out for someone who lacks any appreciation for what those who do get involved actually undertake and attempt to provide!
My understanding from those currently in know is that Safety Cover is planned for the events, however as with all events they are desperately short of volunteers. even if you cannot provide safety cover perhaps you could allow someone who can provide the safety cover whilst you assist with judging, administration, boat & equipment vetting etc. the more limited the resources the more matters will be prioritised to the point that if there are insufficient resources the event should be cancelled and I couldn't imagine the posting trail if that happened.
Have fun, look out for #1 and know your limitations. Your desire for an adrenaline rush should not provide the catalyst for someone elses injury.
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Dave Royle
- Posts: 178
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 11:02 pm
Thanks to Seedy Paddler for looking at the issues very sensibly and for Dave for suggesting stronger clubs helping those who struggle, I know many members of S & S do already help at races in one way or another. The thread was becoming such that it would put off organisers runnnig races in the future. It's hard enough now as I have already said due to lack of volunteers - I know I am an organiser.
Yes having someone on the water at the bottom of the course to pick up the pieces is ideal but not always practical, as is having on water rescue at points down the course, its sods law that a swim will happen at another location as was the case last Sat!
Being part of JD is not the be all and end all, developing moving water skills, being confident on moving water and in stoppers - and learninig how to get out of them is just as important. There are other ways of developing and improving through clubs or finding a personal coach, you will have to pay but that was how it was not many years ago, I had to do that for my two before WC!
Don't forget the sessions the Slalom Committee have been putting on, the last one was poorly attended with a number dropping out at the last minute leaving it too late for us to invite someone else on to it. A number of our top paddlers give their time free to coach on these and there is always a useful talk as well as the chance to take the judges exam.
Remember the primary idea of taking part in slalom is to enjoy yourselves, not to get ont to JD, if the water is more than you are confident with don't do it! It will be there next year!
Parents - arrange your annual hols around paddling some bigger water, Tully and Treweryn are great places in this country for hols as is Bourg in France, but go in a group so you can help each other in case os swims, learn how to rescue before you go, both parents and paddlers, and if you are going to somewhere like Bourg (It's a wonderful place for hols) and swims are likely take an old boat that doesn't matter if its trashed!!!! This is me talking for experience, James & Rich gained lots of their big water experience there and trashed boats (old ones)!
Above all enjoy your paddling and don't make youngsters tackle water they can'y cope with.
Organiers - don't forget the Slalom Committee - we are there to help and develop the sport, if you have any suggestions please tell us, can't say many of us could get into a boat to provide rescue these day as were getting a bit long in the tooth!!!!!!!!! please speak to us
Yes having someone on the water at the bottom of the course to pick up the pieces is ideal but not always practical, as is having on water rescue at points down the course, its sods law that a swim will happen at another location as was the case last Sat!
Being part of JD is not the be all and end all, developing moving water skills, being confident on moving water and in stoppers - and learninig how to get out of them is just as important. There are other ways of developing and improving through clubs or finding a personal coach, you will have to pay but that was how it was not many years ago, I had to do that for my two before WC!
Don't forget the sessions the Slalom Committee have been putting on, the last one was poorly attended with a number dropping out at the last minute leaving it too late for us to invite someone else on to it. A number of our top paddlers give their time free to coach on these and there is always a useful talk as well as the chance to take the judges exam.
Remember the primary idea of taking part in slalom is to enjoy yourselves, not to get ont to JD, if the water is more than you are confident with don't do it! It will be there next year!
Parents - arrange your annual hols around paddling some bigger water, Tully and Treweryn are great places in this country for hols as is Bourg in France, but go in a group so you can help each other in case os swims, learn how to rescue before you go, both parents and paddlers, and if you are going to somewhere like Bourg (It's a wonderful place for hols) and swims are likely take an old boat that doesn't matter if its trashed!!!! This is me talking for experience, James & Rich gained lots of their big water experience there and trashed boats (old ones)!
Above all enjoy your paddling and don't make youngsters tackle water they can'y cope with.
Organiers - don't forget the Slalom Committee - we are there to help and develop the sport, if you have any suggestions please tell us, can't say many of us could get into a boat to provide rescue these day as were getting a bit long in the tooth!!!!!!!!! please speak to us
There will be at least two paddlers at Tully that are BCU Whitewater Safety & Rescue trained, these are also Div1 lady paddlers who are competing so they will not be on hand all the time, but I am sure they will offer assistance if needed.
In reply to some of the other post's page's 96 to 100 of the yearbook should be read as they give good advice especially about Hypothermia on page 98/99 this time of the year.
The only way you will gain experiance on bigger water is to paddle it.
As Anne say's the training days arranged by the Slalom Committee are ideal to gain experiance on bigger water and the coaching on and off the water is first rate.
In reply to some of the other post's page's 96 to 100 of the yearbook should be read as they give good advice especially about Hypothermia on page 98/99 this time of the year.
The only way you will gain experiance on bigger water is to paddle it.
As Anne say's the training days arranged by the Slalom Committee are ideal to gain experiance on bigger water and the coaching on and off the water is first rate.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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canoebabe88
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:12 pm
I agree with Geebs on this one the only way you will learn to paddle big water is to paddle it, even if you just go straight down first time you with then feel happier with yourself and your confidence will improve. If there is competent/reliable safety on the water/bank your own confidence goes up and you will be prepared to try some of the gates you may not have tried if there wasn't. That is how I learnt to paddle moving water.
Yes I still swim even after 4 years practice and being at any level this can still happen, it is more embarrassing at a higher level but who can say truthfully they have a 100% roll? especially if you lose or break your paddle?
I have the paddling ability of a Div 1 paddler and am used to whitewater when I stay upright, but if I go over and my roll does not work this leading to a swim but does this mean I should not be in Div 1?
Yes I still swim even after 4 years practice and being at any level this can still happen, it is more embarrassing at a higher level but who can say truthfully they have a 100% roll? especially if you lose or break your paddle?
I have the paddling ability of a Div 1 paddler and am used to whitewater when I stay upright, but if I go over and my roll does not work this leading to a swim but does this mean I should not be in Div 1?
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guest
As in previous years, there will be safety cover at the International and Div 1/2 at Grandtully. This safety cover is aimed primarily at the youngsters.
In the International, the organisers deliberately send the Veterans down first followed by the J14 so that the Veterans are at the bottom of the course in case a rescue is required.
The organisers are well aware that there are inexperienced/unlucky paddlers on the water who may need rescued.
However, at the end of the day, if the water is too hard for the paddler, let the paddler decide not to compete.
In the International, the organisers deliberately send the Veterans down first followed by the J14 so that the Veterans are at the bottom of the course in case a rescue is required.
The organisers are well aware that there are inexperienced/unlucky paddlers on the water who may need rescued.
However, at the end of the day, if the water is too hard for the paddler, let the paddler decide not to compete.
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Bill
(even if you just go straight down first time you with then feel happier with yourself and your confidence will improve)
I do not agree with this sentiment, Prem/Div 1-2 events are not the time to go racing down the middle of the course, whilst it may improve your confidence it will do nothing for the paddler you are following, if they are successfully negotiating the gates they of course will be significantly slower and stand the risk of being very unfairly whistled off as you whizz past!
If you want to race down the middle of rivers take up whitewater racing (where incidently safety cover is rarely evident) or if you with to compete in slalom go for the gates!
I do not agree with this sentiment, Prem/Div 1-2 events are not the time to go racing down the middle of the course, whilst it may improve your confidence it will do nothing for the paddler you are following, if they are successfully negotiating the gates they of course will be significantly slower and stand the risk of being very unfairly whistled off as you whizz past!
If you want to race down the middle of rivers take up whitewater racing (where incidently safety cover is rarely evident) or if you with to compete in slalom go for the gates!
Bill wrote:if they are successfully negotiating the gates they of course will be significantly slower and stand the risk of being very unfairly whistled off as you whizz past!
"A paddler who has not negotiated the gates prior to catching up with a paddler who has negotiated all the gates up to that point will be blown off by the section judges".
I would hope that sportsmanship would deter the paddler that has floated down the course or missed a lot of gates not to impede someone elses good run, this has alway's been the way in the past?
I see from your earlier post's that you would rather not see inexperianced paddlers on the water? but not everyone has the chance to get to venues where these sort of conditions are available for training as they might not have the support of their club or other organisations to assist them, what we should be looking at doing is offering them assistance to gain the confidence that they need to progress in the sport and provide the safety cover in case it goes wrong.
With regard to 'Wild Water' racing (which I think you were refering to), I think you will find that Air Bags are compulsory rule 5.6.2 and the safety cover is paramount, rule 5.11.1 states "Since Wild Water Racing is as much a contest against the elements as against other competitors, it is required that any competitor finding another who is or may be in danger, must immediately render his/her assistance, on pain of disqualification for life" As this applies to a slalom competition as well perhaps someone would like to propose this at this years AGM as a rule change?
Lets all encourage and support young paddlers, lets face it they are the future of the sport and our medal hopes for the future :;):
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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guest
I agree that paddlers going straight through should be stopped by the section judges, but it is very difficult for a section judge to know what has happened higher on the course. If they whistle the wrong paddler, (who may not have set off in correct order anyway), they run the risk of ruining a good run because of another paddler's selfishness.
Ultimately the responsibility lies with the paddler themselves, and if they are so petty-minded as to ruin someone else's run by paddling through, intentionally or not, then they should be at least warned and penalised if necessary. The same applies for those pulling out of eddies into the path of faster paddlers even when they have not been whistled - consideration of basic water safety should take over here rather than trying to keep going regardless of the consequences. It's never nice being caught by a fellow competitor but I expect that at some time it has happened to all of us, you just have to learn to deal with it.
To finish on a positive note, don't forget that many organisers, if they have time, are more than willing to allow newly promoted paddlers to be followed by their own safety cover, an ideal way of gaining confidence in competition.
Ultimately the responsibility lies with the paddler themselves, and if they are so petty-minded as to ruin someone else's run by paddling through, intentionally or not, then they should be at least warned and penalised if necessary. The same applies for those pulling out of eddies into the path of faster paddlers even when they have not been whistled - consideration of basic water safety should take over here rather than trying to keep going regardless of the consequences. It's never nice being caught by a fellow competitor but I expect that at some time it has happened to all of us, you just have to learn to deal with it.
To finish on a positive note, don't forget that many organisers, if they have time, are more than willing to allow newly promoted paddlers to be followed by their own safety cover, an ideal way of gaining confidence in competition.
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guest
tully is flat...what experience do you needGeebs wrote:Bill wrote: I see from your earlier post's that you would rather not see inexperianced paddlers on the water? but not everyone has the chance to get to venues where these sort of conditions are available for training
fact is i would rather not see inexperienced paddlers on the water either....they have clearly got up the ranks far to easily
its appears now as long as your a regular competitor, within a very limited period of time your in the top devision even if you cant negotiate a small rapid without missing gates...which is pathetic
experience is gained over time and more time should be spent in lower devisions if you cant negotiate gates on a small rapid like tully
Thanks to the saftey cover on at Tully at the weekend i did not need it myself but that poor little girl did as she swam most of the rapid. I dare say she could paddle but fell in and did not have the strenghth to roll up at that point but any other day will be able to paddle down the course.
Well done again YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN IT MITE HAPPEN TO YOU :p
Well done again YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN IT MITE HAPPEN TO YOU :p
lets get it on
Well said fison, the safety cover at Tully did a great job, there was a few swimmers over the weekend both on the Pan Celtic and the div 1/2 both male and female! and each time the safety cover rescued them safely, well done guy's.
The whole weekend was well organised (apart from the snow) and credit to the organisers for a good event.
With reply to "guest" if it is flat at Tully why is there a Prem event there next weekend? and why is listed in all the river guide books as a grade 2/3 river in that section? flat is grade 1 ??? Yes you can get into the higher div's by chosing the right events to gain promotion, but you will come un-stuck in the end, as sooner or later you will have to paddle on the bigger water and that is when it show's.
The whole weekend was well organised (apart from the snow) and credit to the organisers for a good event.
With reply to "guest" if it is flat at Tully why is there a Prem event there next weekend? and why is listed in all the river guide books as a grade 2/3 river in that section? flat is grade 1 ??? Yes you can get into the higher div's by chosing the right events to gain promotion, but you will come un-stuck in the end, as sooner or later you will have to paddle on the bigger water and that is when it show's.
Paddle fast,,,Paddle safe Yorkshire Canoe Coaching
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prem paddler
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guest