Double Prem at Tully - Course changes

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:10 pm

I know that I was not the only paddler dissapointed by the small number of changes made to the course between Saturday's race and Sunday's race. The two courses were very similar, and at least half the sequences were the same across both days.

If I was running a double, I would attempt, as far as possible to create two courses of different characters across the two days, while minimising the amount of work (of course). I would certainly try to avoid having a single sequence that was the same across the two days.

Is there any good reason that we were short-changed in this way?

Prem Man · Post by **Prem Man** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:19 pm

Only six changes could be made due to selection.

K1 · Post by K1 » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:00 pm

I was told that you weren't allowed to make more than 6 changes.
If anything I think Sunday's was slightly easier.

Dave Royle · Post by **Dave Royle** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:54 pm

Normally you would expect completely different courses between two premier events. We have often been dissappointed when this hasn't been the case or when the course hasn't been changed between a div 1 and a Prem.

This event was different as it was Junior Selection which was taking placed on a championship format. This means that there should be a maximum of 6 changes between qualifying and semifinals.

I thought the changes to the courses were quite clever. For those of us who were struggling to get the course at all the changes didn't make much difference. The spins just turned into breakouts. For the top guys, however, the course changes were quite significant, particularly the down 11.

The courses were pretty difficult (not a criticism) and I was left with the age old feeling "if only I could put the best of both days together".:laugh:

parent · Post by **parent** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:23 pm

After the Tully race will the FULL final results of selection be posted and not just the top ones, so all juniors can see how they have done???? ??? ??? ???

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:24 pm

I had a feeling that there was some kind of limit on the number of changes allowed, which is why I was asking the question. I still feel short changed, however, and it could affect my decision to race at selection events in the future, where this format is used. Having raced the Saturday, it was obvious that I was not going to be able to significantly improve my performance on Sunday, and I could have saved myself a few quid and gone home.

I agree with Dave about the move at gate 11, and I would have loved to be able to pull it off, but I never got there in the first place!

Andy Greensmith · Post by **Andy Greensmith** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:26 am

Hi Dave,

Unfortunately as per usual the canoe slalom world revolves around GB. Us common paddlers just have to fit in somewhere and make the best of a less than perfect situation.

Sorry for my negetivity but certain issues around slalom (over the last 12 months) have left me feelin a lttle bitter hence less paddling.

Andy

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 11:11 am

Andy - If you have issues surrounding salom then there are the channels to voice these, i.e. via the Slalom committee, we are very open to discussion and suggestions and have not received any. Recently Etienne published a paper on suggested changes to slalom, this was a catalyst for discussion and has created many suggestions and much discussion. did you respond???

The ONLY race affected minimally by J selection this year was Tully, and this was the course changes only, following a number of grumbles last year we have been as careful as possible to ensure that selection does not take over the race but is secondary to it. Slalom is about all paddlers, those at the top, those in the lower divisions and all in between. we have to have a balance to endure the sport continues to grow and continues to win medals, one doesn't happen without the other.

A full Competition Review is about to take place, all paddlers and clubs will have the chance to put their point of view forward.

The present Slalom Committee are fully commited to the sport and it's future development for all levels.

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:24 pm

That's an easy one Dave.
It was a Selection event. So maximum of 6 gate changes permitted between Saturday & Sunday.
Made an easier Saturday evening for those doing the changes though !

BrianK · Post by **BrianK** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:30 pm

Full results from Tully will be posted on the web hopefully by the weekend and will include both Selection & Premier tables.
If you sent the organiser an envelope you will also received the published copy.

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:30 pm

As many people are probably aware, I have quite strong leanings towards Andy's point of view. I have been paddling for about 25 years now, and at no point in that time was I ever in contention for a team place. In other words, I have just done it for fun. That doesn't mean that I am not competitive, just that I am racing at a different level, and have different aspirations.

When I end up dissatisfied with a race, it is more often because of some organisational problem, or an uninteresting course, than with my personal performance.

However, I can understand the reasons for the Selection policy for the J18 squad, and although I am disappointed that it affected my own race, I can understand that it is not always possible to run separate selection races with the limited number of weekends available. Also it was quite exciting to be there and follow the ups and downs of the Junior hopefuls.

Congratulations to all those selected.

Andy Greensmith · Post by **Andy Greensmith** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 10:13 am

Hi Anne,

Yes i did read Etiennes paper. When i read the title i wondered if Etienne was thinking on the same lines as me, however this wasn't the case. Ettienne was mainly concerned with race formats and rule changes which whilst i had no issue with the proposed changes they weren't amongst my main issues regarding slalom.

One of the problems i have is that when i voice my opinions regarding teams and coaching, many people think i'm being agest and putting the younger paddlers down. This isn't the case.

My biggest issue is with training/coaching. I work full time, want to be competitive and hold together a meaningful relationship. This means as every paddler in my position knows, i have very little time.

I wrote a letter to my club voicing my opinions and it started a heated debate. I found that there were several paddlers that saw my point and felt the same, however many parents thought i was a complete £osser.

At the end of the day, i'm not going to win the olympics so i simply want to have good time. Sounds simple but over the last 12 months+, funding for the seemingly endless number of coaching groups has left me feeling pushed out of the sport.

In prem, the majority of paddlers arn't part of any team yet the sport seems to revolve around them ie early season starts (now early March), no races during the summer. Dedicated training slots.

Maybe its just me?? And before someone says "Whats the answer?" i have no answer but i will say that as all the younger paddlers that are currently part of coachin groups and teams get dropped because they don't meet the criteria, what happens to them? I know through experience, that they quit. I hope i'm prooved wrong.

Andy

Anne · Post by **Anne** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:38 am

It is impossible to offer funded coaching for all! Why youngsters should want to give up just because they don't make the criteria for funding is a mystery to me, it wasn't that long ago that all coaching had to be paid for! I know we were there as I am sure you were to!

The Slalom Committee managed to offer some coaching by WC paddlers, for lower division juniors not on funding but we do not have a bottomless pit!

I am aware as to how difficult it is to continue paddling, hold down a full time job and a relationship, there are many in your situation, including one of my boys and he isn't part of an elite club. Surely S & S can offer some coaching for the non elite but keen paddlers? we are supposed to be a club based sport???

If we could get a Canoe England slalom committee off the ground perhaps your needs could be met by them at a subsidised cost, as the England slalom Team did in the days before WC! but owing to various reasons that has stumbled at the first hurdle at the moment and needs resurecting.

There are a few people out there trying their best for the sport but we need more help, the sport depends on volunteers and too few people seem to be prepared to help these days.

I don't know that there will ever be an answer that will solve your needs, World Class have criterias dictated to them by UK Sport and at the end of the day they only have one aim - Olympic medals.

davebrads · Post by **davebrads** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 12:17 pm

It is understandable that Juniors should drop out when they fail to make the teams. They train and are coached to achieve goals that are given to them by their coaches/parents/team managers, and when they fail, they will feel that there is no reason to continue. This has always been the case, but the money that has come into the sport has if anything increased the pressure to perform, and so the feelings of failure are stronger.

It has also generally been the case that the long term stayers in the sport have come into it at a later stage in life. They are already developing their personal lives, and the canoeing becomes part of that life. It is also true that it is these people that generally put the most into the sport, acting on an entirely voluntary basis.

The problem that Andy is coming up against,which is one all of us old timers has discovered in the past, is that there doesn't seem to be any recognition of the importance of these people to the sport, and their needs are always neglected in favour of the top end. Most of us want to offer more to the sport, but find the lack of support makes this very difficult to achieve.

What has happened at World Class is not totally divorced from the subject either. Although World Class has its own objectives, I do consider that they could think a little more outside their own little box. When World Class was set up, and there was suddenly a lot more money available to the sport, I did think that it would be good for the sport as a whole, as some of that money could be used for projects nearer the bottom of the pyramid. In fact the opposite is the case, and if anything the GB squad structure has become even more insular than ever before.

guest · Post by **guest** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 3:50 pm

Dave is absolutely right with his last comment. It is not so much a pyramid as a narrow tower with a very small base. If people fall out of the criteria they are abandoned and surprise, surprise the (very) few left in get better at the expense of everyone else. What's needed is a far broader base to the pyramid to ensure that a few bad results do not over-influence selection for the funded junior programmes - not everybody develops at the same time or rate and those we abandon could, with the right type of continued training and support, be tomorrow's champions. We are simply putting too few eggs in a very small basket. And do the best juniors always make the best seniors? We do not have the strength in depth of the continental clubs, (many of which could pass as junior national teams such is the depth of quality participants). Selecting a handful of teenagers and hoping that they will continue to show the promise, application and desire that they have when supported by family when they move on to work or university with all the pressures these bring is asking too much, and a dangerously narrow strategy for looking at future medalists at any international level.