There are some very important points coming out here which might merit their own threads with more pertinent titles! Anyone willing and able to consolidate these as appropriate? Personally I would go back to Anne's post on 21.4.06 - it's OK saying everything's better now but the existence of any funding at all is going to create pressure that was not there before. With more money comes more pressure.
The thing I cannot find, which might inform this debate, is a FULL list of who is on World Class, at every level. The GB Canoeing website seems to be passworded so that only those involved can gain access to the important bits, which I do not find entirely wholesome. It would be interesting to see how much is being given to whom, at all levels of the sport senior to junior, both paddlers and coaches, and this may answer some of the concerns about the backbiting and nastiness which, if true, seem to be in danger of derailing the genuine advances the sport has made lately.
This is not just for idle curiosity.The funds are public in origin and their application and destination should be fully transparent so that full public accountability is maintained. At present we do not appear to have any transparency so just how are the funds being applied?
Double Prem at Tully - Course changes
Have I missed the point here? there appears to be alot of people saying that it is unfair that some train really hard and dont get any funding at the end of it and then give up? Well as far as Im concerned, if those people give up at the first sign of hardship, then they arent the sort of people who deserve funding anyway. Yes, the funding does cause a 2-tier system, but look at any other sport and that's what happens. WC specifically as I think Anne said is to get Olympic medals; so there has to be a cut off at some point. Take football for example - Im a PE teacher and loads of kids play football - yet I cant get them all into the team every week; If I dont pick someone they either give up (therefore I dont really want them in the team) or they try harder to get selected next time. That's what we should be encouraging our youngsters to do - throughout my canoeing career I never got any funding from GB, WC or whatever - I just got off my backside, found coaches who were willing to help; spoke to others; blagged as much as possible, and got 2 World Cup seasons out of it - so it is possible with the right attitude.
We cant really moan that people get money for doing well; obviously funding is doing it's job - 3 Olympic medals at the last 2 Olympiads - which is better than the two prior to those - funding works.
We cant really moan that people get money for doing well; obviously funding is doing it's job - 3 Olympic medals at the last 2 Olympiads - which is better than the two prior to those - funding works.
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Andy Greensmith
Funding....Doh. Funding is awkward and i never meant to raise the topic of funding because it gets really heated. I'm sure that most Junior paddler don't give a #### about funding, obviously they'd happily recieve some money but what they really want is support.
Alls i was trying to say was that those who do get support from coaching etc are all having a great time at the moment but come the day when 90% of those paddlers get dropped from their coaching group or team many of them will more than likely quit.
Now loads of parents and juniors will think that this is complete rubbish and i hope it is. Unfortunately though its not been the case for the last several years, because i've been around long enough to see it happen again and again.
I'm glad that shorty has not come into contact with the negitive side of this comptetion yet but without knowing who this is, how long they've been paddling and how they compare with the others in his/her group i can't judge how true this statment is for others. If you're up the top in your group then you're not going to recieve regular critisism, you also remain supported for longer than the lesser paddlers in your group.
When a person gets dropped, they have some options none of which are easy. They either carry on and improve at a slower rate, quit or train harder than ever (to get slected again) relying on parents to get them to the water as often as possible AND to help them whilst there. Not all paddlers have parents that are willing to do this.
These paddlers then drift into my area. A person that just wants to paddle, compete and have a bit of fun in the process. However, you will have to fit in with dozens of coaching groups and have reduced water time. Season's that fit around selection etc etc.
I'd like to hear from some of the older paddlers ie U16's and U18's. Some of these paddlers will have been part of Start and other groups. When they first paddled and i'll bet that their groups were relatively large, however, i'd like to know that out of their large group what percentage still paddle now 4 years+ on.
Alls i was trying to say was that those who do get support from coaching etc are all having a great time at the moment but come the day when 90% of those paddlers get dropped from their coaching group or team many of them will more than likely quit.
Now loads of parents and juniors will think that this is complete rubbish and i hope it is. Unfortunately though its not been the case for the last several years, because i've been around long enough to see it happen again and again.
I'm glad that shorty has not come into contact with the negitive side of this comptetion yet but without knowing who this is, how long they've been paddling and how they compare with the others in his/her group i can't judge how true this statment is for others. If you're up the top in your group then you're not going to recieve regular critisism, you also remain supported for longer than the lesser paddlers in your group.
When a person gets dropped, they have some options none of which are easy. They either carry on and improve at a slower rate, quit or train harder than ever (to get slected again) relying on parents to get them to the water as often as possible AND to help them whilst there. Not all paddlers have parents that are willing to do this.
These paddlers then drift into my area. A person that just wants to paddle, compete and have a bit of fun in the process. However, you will have to fit in with dozens of coaching groups and have reduced water time. Season's that fit around selection etc etc.
I'd like to hear from some of the older paddlers ie U16's and U18's. Some of these paddlers will have been part of Start and other groups. When they first paddled and i'll bet that their groups were relatively large, however, i'd like to know that out of their large group what percentage still paddle now 4 years+ on.
Frontman, I think you'll find it is not the lack of funding that makes people give up but the perceived inequalities - for example, if you look at the selection criteria for whatever training group there is always a "get out of jail free" clause for those that the coaches want on squads but don't achieve the necessary criteria. Sometimes it is hard to explain to anyone how and why certain people are included and others not.
My point is that before reacting to the selection of people for coaching squads, (and I'm NOT questioning the selection for GB teams by fair competition), we need to know who's on and who's not. There have been a number of people criticising the attitude of Junior WC paddlers in particular, but who are they and what do they get from being on WC? Is it free coaching, water fees paid, funding towards equipment, travel costs paid??? I think if we had the answers to these questions we might be better able to understand the pressures to which these individuals are being subjected, then we could judge whether they are behaving badly for a reason!
This does not take away from Frontman's point that an inate ability to perservere and overcome adversity is of paramount importance, regardless of funding, etc. I still think that we might all be a little happier if we could SEE that funds are being applied wisely and fairly. I'm not saying that they are not, simply that at present how do we know? If there really is an attitude problem with certain paddlers we may not need to look any further for its cause.
Finally, Andy's very pertinent comments about the J16/18 paddlers point back to an earlier post which noted the structure of GB training wasn't exactly what most might think of as a pyramid. I shouldn't imagine it gives much incentive to anyone over 15 to try and butt in to the established squads, so we're back again to how much an individual wants to succeed and, ultimately, if they love the sport for its own sake or merely what they can get out of it...
My point is that before reacting to the selection of people for coaching squads, (and I'm NOT questioning the selection for GB teams by fair competition), we need to know who's on and who's not. There have been a number of people criticising the attitude of Junior WC paddlers in particular, but who are they and what do they get from being on WC? Is it free coaching, water fees paid, funding towards equipment, travel costs paid??? I think if we had the answers to these questions we might be better able to understand the pressures to which these individuals are being subjected, then we could judge whether they are behaving badly for a reason!
This does not take away from Frontman's point that an inate ability to perservere and overcome adversity is of paramount importance, regardless of funding, etc. I still think that we might all be a little happier if we could SEE that funds are being applied wisely and fairly. I'm not saying that they are not, simply that at present how do we know? If there really is an attitude problem with certain paddlers we may not need to look any further for its cause.
Finally, Andy's very pertinent comments about the J16/18 paddlers point back to an earlier post which noted the structure of GB training wasn't exactly what most might think of as a pyramid. I shouldn't imagine it gives much incentive to anyone over 15 to try and butt in to the established squads, so we're back again to how much an individual wants to succeed and, ultimately, if they love the sport for its own sake or merely what they can get out of it...
There has always been some bitching between paddlers and parents etc. I was paddling as junior in the 90's and it was terrible parents becoming judges and giving poor decisions even at international levels. I was a member of S & S at this time and was treated as an outsider because I got my coaching else where.
I do think Andy raises some pertenant points when it comes to what incentives there are for those out of the elite groups. A few years back I took the decision to follow my career rather than move to nottingham and compete/train full time. I now just paddle for enjoyment but find that there is little if nothing to aim for. For those of us who do it for fun but still want to be competitive what is there for us apart from the personal satisfaction of competing?
I do think that now funding has become such an issue that this has put extra pressure on junior paddlers who do often quit when the funding ceases particularly win the transition between junior and senior.
Back in the day we competed because we loved it and not for funding. We had to pay to attend junior international races and funding had to be sought else where. I do not know what the answers are but they must be out there somewhere!!
I too am a PE teacher but I pick my teams on commitment and not on who is the best. It dosent matter what the sport if an athlete is not going to commit to training they will not make it. However, those that demonstrate the commitment could eventually make it to the top level. Are we ignoring possible future elite athletes by not rewarding commitment?
I would like to see changes to how competitions are run and this would include re-introducing practice runs in premiere or at least giving some water time without the course. For those of us who do not train regularly on white water going to Tully once a year to compete without practice runs is quite a daunting prospect.
As a group we need to do something as numbers in the sport are on the decline.
I do think Andy raises some pertenant points when it comes to what incentives there are for those out of the elite groups. A few years back I took the decision to follow my career rather than move to nottingham and compete/train full time. I now just paddle for enjoyment but find that there is little if nothing to aim for. For those of us who do it for fun but still want to be competitive what is there for us apart from the personal satisfaction of competing?
I do think that now funding has become such an issue that this has put extra pressure on junior paddlers who do often quit when the funding ceases particularly win the transition between junior and senior.
Back in the day we competed because we loved it and not for funding. We had to pay to attend junior international races and funding had to be sought else where. I do not know what the answers are but they must be out there somewhere!!
I too am a PE teacher but I pick my teams on commitment and not on who is the best. It dosent matter what the sport if an athlete is not going to commit to training they will not make it. However, those that demonstrate the commitment could eventually make it to the top level. Are we ignoring possible future elite athletes by not rewarding commitment?
I would like to see changes to how competitions are run and this would include re-introducing practice runs in premiere or at least giving some water time without the course. For those of us who do not train regularly on white water going to Tully once a year to compete without practice runs is quite a daunting prospect.
As a group we need to do something as numbers in the sport are on the decline.
Mikey,
I do not think that commitment is always rewarded as it should be. Understandably coaches want results so they can keep their jobs. If they are faced, (usually because of lack of funds?), with a choice between a fast paddler who can't be bothered most of the time and a paddler who is hard working and dependable but 10% slower, who do they pick? Ethics and practicality are not easy bedfellows.
As for water time, I think much of the problem could be solved by looking at the staging of events more intelligently. For example, instead of having prem/div 1 combined events, why not run a div 1 on the Saturday and a prem on Sunday. Prem paddlers could judge on Saturday and would be allowed practice, div 1 paddlers could judge on the Sunday, (or compete in prem if they were promoted). In addition both events would benefit by allowing course designers to set courses appropriate to the division rather than a compromise, (and this is surely one of the biggest factors in allowing people to reach div 1 without gaining experience of bigger water - how does anyone set a meaningful course to span div 2/3/4?). I'm sure there are other ways of allowing people to have more water time, it just takes a little imagination and thought.
I do not think that commitment is always rewarded as it should be. Understandably coaches want results so they can keep their jobs. If they are faced, (usually because of lack of funds?), with a choice between a fast paddler who can't be bothered most of the time and a paddler who is hard working and dependable but 10% slower, who do they pick? Ethics and practicality are not easy bedfellows.
As for water time, I think much of the problem could be solved by looking at the staging of events more intelligently. For example, instead of having prem/div 1 combined events, why not run a div 1 on the Saturday and a prem on Sunday. Prem paddlers could judge on Saturday and would be allowed practice, div 1 paddlers could judge on the Sunday, (or compete in prem if they were promoted). In addition both events would benefit by allowing course designers to set courses appropriate to the division rather than a compromise, (and this is surely one of the biggest factors in allowing people to reach div 1 without gaining experience of bigger water - how does anyone set a meaningful course to span div 2/3/4?). I'm sure there are other ways of allowing people to have more water time, it just takes a little imagination and thought.