Points

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:11 pm

Surely a paddlers point score should also take into account how well a paddler performs relative to those in the division above ? (assuming an identical course and higher division event being held).

eg. A div 3 paddler at Sowerby Bridge won both div 3 races with times better than all the div 2 paddlers and went on to win his next two div 2 races. In this instance you could say he won 2 races ie. div 2 and div 3 on the first day and award 2000 points. This would save the other div 3 paddlers from still having to compete against a div 1 standard paddler in their next race.

Graeme · Post by **Graeme** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:20 pm

They should have applied for re-ranking if they truely are of a decent level.

thats like me trying to start all over again in div4 without reranking, although it would be amusing and iam sure they enjoyed it lol

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Mon May 22, 2006 12:08 am

You could have a rule that if your time would put you in the top 30% of paddlers in the division above, you get promoted to that division. You could even look at what points they would have scored in the higher division, and let them count these as one of their best results.

This would allow a group of new good paddlers to progress quickly and not hold each other back. What does anyone else think ? ???

If more people get promoted you could balance this by making it harder to stay in a division.

chauffeur · Post by **chauffeur** » Mon May 22, 2006 1:47 pm

katonas wrote:This would allow a group of new good paddlers to progress quickly and not hold each other back.

This issue might start to overlap with the thread about how good paddlers need to be on white water before they get promoted to division one.

Perhaps more div1/2 events could be held. Maybe when you get promoted one of the three counting races to promotion should be on Tully, HPP, Washburn etc....

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:04 pm

chauffeur wrote:...how good paddlers need to be on white water before they get promoted to division one.

...one of the three counting races to promotion should be on Tully, HPP, Washburn etc....

Suppose a small number of equally inexperienced div 3 K1M paddlers compete. The winner could find himself in div 2 having to paddler at Holme Pierrpont or on the Tryweryn. It could be a scary time...

A comparison between his winning time and the times for div 2 K1M might have shown that he wasn't ready.

As well as scoring 2500 points to be promoted, you could say that he should achieve a time in a div 3 event which would have placed him in the top 50% of div 2 times on the same day. ???

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:19 pm

A friend of mine has competed in exactly three slalom events.
She has won all of them and now finds herself in division 2.
I'm less than convinced that she's ready.

chauffeur · Post by **chauffeur** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:58 pm

katonas wrote:Suppose a small number of equally inexperienced div 3 K1M paddlers compete. The winner could find himself in div 2 having to paddler at Holme Pierrpont or on the Tryweryn. It could be a scary time...

No one is saying as soon as you are promoted to div 2 to paddle HPP, Tully etc... Paddle one of those when you are ready for promotion.
The fact stands at the moment you could go up to Div 1 and never have paddled on white water. If one qualifying race had to be on Tully, HPP, Washburn, Tyweryn, then at least hopefully they would be ready for div one water.
There are plenty of div 2 races on smaller water to gain skill on and work up to higher grade water.
We always encouraged our children to paddle on as high grade water as they could in each division, to make sure they were ready for the next division.
You won't stop some paddlers racing through, they may not be in a position to go for re-ranking- it could be just that thye trained hard over winter.

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:56 pm

chauffeur wrote:If one qualifying race had to be on Tully, HPP, Washburn, Tyweryn, then at least hopefully they would be ready for div one water.

Are the div 1 courses on these rivers set up so they are much harder than the div 2 courses ? ie. is someone more likely to swim on the same river in the higher division or is their first experience always going to be hair raising ? (I only started slalom this year, and haven't seen a high division race yet)

I liked the way the father of a very good female paddler described how she learnt to paddle HPP with confidence - starting with the easy bottom course, and then splitting the main course into sections to be practised until she was confident. Perhaps a question such as, 'Are you used to paddling water like this ?' should be asked before a race. Sometimes people don't know their limits...
I bet the organisers would allow a paddler to remain in limbo (just like they allow re-ranking) after gaining enough points to be promoted (if they wish) eg. between div 3 and 2, and paddle div 3 events until they feel more confident.

I started this thread though to see if a couple of additional rules comparing standards between divisions, could make promotions quicker and more appropriate. Equally, if a paddler fails to get a time that puts him in the top 50% of a particular race in div 2 all year, then div 3 might be a better resting place.

Ho hum, sorry to prattle on so much :p

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:29 pm

I have to agree with Jeff, (since I know the paddler concerned and am equally concerned). Another case of too fast promotion meaning that the paddler may not paddle slalom again.

Organisers cannot allow paddlers to 'remain in limbo' between the divisions the rules do not allow for it. BUT it is in the paddlers (or parents) gift, as the paddler could enter officials events (making a note with the card that they are not experienced) and not do a ranking event at the next level until they are confident. I do hope that Jeff's friend will come to Peterborough in July and do precisely that, compete in the officials, for fun. Officials duties do not have to be judging, and she (or a parent) could help in control, put out cards etc. I am sure Kate will be sympathetic and help.

To my mind there are two issues here:
1) 'minority classes' getting promoted too fast as they are competeing against very samm fields so are more affected by the absence of experienced paddlers. Sometimes just getting all teh gates means a win!

and b) a very good paddler taking top place and slowing down promotion in other classes.

Having been the author of comparing C2s to the winning K1M score, I like this approach, and am waiting with baited breath to see the effects, what I have seen so far is encouraging. If it works I would like to extend it to ladies and c1s. If this had been the case, Jeffs friend would still be nervously paddling div 3, rather than NOT paddling at div 2.

The second problem, well OK there are less points for two events, but generally I see the standard of paddling as too low across all divisions, so I am not worried by soemone staying down a division for an extra event. I freely say that I should not be ranked where I am, but there was no one good enough to stop me/get me demoted again.

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:47 pm

Colin mentioned that in some races getting all the gates is enough to win. More worrying is that in many cases it is still possible to get good points towards promotion when missing the odd difficult gate.

So, suggestion for a new rule:

"A run cannot count towards promotion if it includes a 50 penalty (though points can be gained for ranking purposes)"

This would at least mean that a paddler being promoted has been able to get all the gates at their current level! Ok, it won't stop all fast promotions but it might help

Any thoughts?

PS Do you know if it's possible to request reranking to a lower division if you are truly out of your depth?

katonas · Post by **katonas** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:51 pm

Canadian PAddler wrote:Having been the author of comparing C2s to the winning K1M score, I like this approach, and am waiting with baited breath to see the effects, what I have seen so far is encouraging. If it works I would like to extend it to ladies and c1s. If this had been the case, Jeffs friend would still be nervously paddling div 3, rather than NOT paddling at div 2.

Comparisons between disciplines like this, sound like a great idea. How are the C2s compared to the winning K1M time ? Its probably more acceptable to compare C1 or C2 to K1M, than K1M to K1W. I'd be interested in seeing a way that wouldn't offend or be seen as sexist.

A paddler should be promoted because they have reached a certain standard rather than be lucky someone else didn't turn up, or missed a gate. If K1M were the standard the other disciplines were compared to, within K1M it would still be useful to make cross divisional comparisons for promotion.

As for the standard being too low in some divisions, if weaker paddlers who have lost all hope of ever being promoted were given a new goal of coming in the top 50% on one or more days, just to avoid relegation...

Out of interest, did Jeff's friend achieve times in her winning div 3 races that would have put her in the top 50% of div 2 times on the same day, or were they just div 3/4 events ?

Of course there is a certain excitement of knowing that no matter how bad you are, you could still win ! :p

Carlr · Post by **Carlr** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:12 am

The whole idea of competing at slaloms is to win and maybe this person has natural ability at the sport, I feel Jeff should be encouraging this person instead of installing doubt as to what he/she is capable of. You will always get someone who will win races at there first attempt (shame there are not more).

CP dont do yourself any injustice its your age and experience that keeps you where you are. (Lots of experience and even more age) but keep up the good work.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:45 am

Please do not turn on Jeff, when I saw him he was being VERY positive with his friend, just being concerned on the BB here. Jeff is one of the good guys, and will be encouraging her to enjoy the sport at whatever level she feels happy to go at.

C2s are compared by taking a dividing their score by 1.25 (a figure similar to the 'international standard' defined in the year book,). Then comparing this mofified score to K1M and seeing how many points would have been awarded. The international standard was obtained by looking at winning times at a number of internationals across several course types, so is based on results, not prejudice. OK it is international, and will depend on the type of course (C2s are slower on shallow courses), may not apply to lower division events, but is a yardstick we can use, and tune. On this basis we would probably use 1.25 for K1W and 1.1 for C1. For info Jeffs friend would now have less than 1500 points, so could still be testing herself on div 3 water.

Thats it. No more info on Jeffs Friend. Getting too close to identifying her. If you are reading this friend, then well done in getting promoted, please keep enjoying paddling, and take this as a postive concern NOT a criticism of you or your paddling. Hope to see you at Peterborough in July, along with eveyone else who knows a good slalom when they see one.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:46 am

I feel Jeff should be encouraging this person instead of installing doubt as to what he/she is capable of.

You're dead right. She will receive all the encouragement that she requires with no installing of doubt!

I do hope that Jeff's friend will come to Peterborough in July and do precisely that, compete in the officials, for fun.

I do too, and I'll try to steer her that way. I also hope that she'll be available for the Interclubs in September

Carlr · Post by **Carlr** » Tue May 23, 2006 11:24 am

[quote] Please do not turn on Jeff, when I saw him he was being VERY positive with his friend, just being concerned on the BB here. Jeff is one of the good guys, and will be encouraging her to enjoy the sport at whatever level she feels happy to go at.

No criticism meant and i was not picking on jeff, I hope all goes well for jeffs friend.