Too few indispensible volunteers

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
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JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by JimW » Mon Apr 04, 2022 9:15 pm

Emerging from a couple of particularly difficult years it is becoming quite clear that a situation that people have been murmering about for years is growing ever more critical if this sport is to survive in its current form.

Too many of our key volunteers are getting on in years, some identified as vulnerable during lockdown and others may have health issues developing or just around the corner, and it appears that not all are still able to help out, or maybe less often. In some cases only 1 or 2 of these volunteers knows how to do what it is they do for us.

We desperately need a new generation of volunteers to learn how to do things like set up Tutti for races, how to set up the timing beams for higher divisions and how to work the software used at different races. We also need people of a technical disposition who would be able to learn how to maintain the equipment and/or repair it. But more than that, we need more people to judge at races and more people to become section judges for the higher divisions (first you will need to get experience of judging).

If YOU or YOUR CHILDREN want to continue racing for many more years and you don't already get involved with judging or setup of local races, you really need to start. We just about have enough people to get by now, but it takes time to learn and the knowledge needs to be shared around more.

All those of you who do already help with judging and setup - thank you, race organisers really appreciate it!

InsertUsernameHere
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Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:03 pm

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by InsertUsernameHere » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:49 am

Hi Jim,

You have made a very valuable point. One of the challenges I find with the technical side is that it’s hard to learn/remember how to do something when there might be a big gap between doing it (especially with Covid) and it feels like the consequences of getting it wrong are quite high. I wondered if it would be possible to record a couple of YouTube videos about how to set it all up /use it (and maybe pack it away)? I know this might just feel like another burden on the people that do know what they are doing - but it in the long term it might be really helpful??

Helen

321go
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Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 8:30 pm

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by 321go » Thu Apr 28, 2022 11:33 pm

The comment about promotion and points has now escalated to 2 pages yet this far more important post has but 1 response
The sport is lacking assistance in running events. There are too many who turn up expecting an event to run. So let put into perspective through only the 3 events i have attended this year…..

LV Div1. Timing 3 section judges 4
Shepperton timing 2 section judges 1
Selection timing 3 section judges 7-8

For a race to be run professionally, and i would like to think i speak for both timing team and section judges … there needs to be a team of 5-6 in timing and similar for section judging. Any less than that and the idea of volunteer for fun disolves into duty!! And the expectations of a slick and professionally run event disappears.

I cannot speak for the llandysul or Tully races as couldnt attend BUT for the sport to survive with a level of professional officalism we need to encourage more involvement. When i hear comments such as ‘dont worry about the organisation, concentrate on your children’ i believe that because there has been an expectation that the pre Covid commitment from volunteers would carry on ‘post COVID’. This is definitely NOT the case.
Therefore if those in the upper echelons of our sport wish to see it survive then there needs to be a HUGE switch in mindset. GET INVOLVED.
Selection said it all to me….bear in mind all those judging and timing are unpaid volunteers !!! when were we thanked by British canoeing …5th!!!
Paddlers - racing because they wantedto race
Coaches - paid
LV- they hosted the event - paid
Parents -attended as support
Then the volunteers ….many of whom had no vested interest in the event other than pride to see an event run professionally. Surely our volunteer time is more valuable especially as at most events we are still tidying up wheneveryone is at prize giving!!
Whilst paddler numbers in Div1 / Prem aredown at races, pro- rata the numbers of officials is in a far worse state.if you want professionally run events to continue then we need HELP.
Right off my soap and doning hard hats and flak jacket….

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by Steve Holmes » Fri Apr 29, 2022 1:59 pm

I don't believe my comment was about points and promotion but about a concern regarding falling participation numbers and event cancelltaions, which would tie in with the points on this post. Surely if volunteers are using their time to set up and dismantle a slalom course they would like to see a viable number of paddlers turn up to use it?

I absolutely take all the points on board and there is a discussion on how to increase volunteer numbers, and also how to get current volunteers to relinquish control and train new volunteers in their area. My experience of div 1 and Prem events is limited, so my understanding of the sheer number of volunteers needed is not great. I volunteer where I can at lower division events, though I have to put the welfare of my daughter first. Balancing judging at Nene with looking after a 10 year old racing 2 boats was interesting.

A lot of the time parents don't feel qualified to volunteer or judge, and it takes being thrown in at the deep end to make people realise that they can. A certain Sunday last year where a certain superstar dropped a box of judging equipment at the top of the course 5 minutes after the event should have started saying "If you want an event we need this box to be empty!" Although this situation is far from ideal, it did force a lot of parents into judging who are now more likely to judge in the future.

I raise my hands to all the volunteers in the sport - the race organisers, committee, control teams, judges, safety, catering teams, club coaches (most of whom are NOT paid) and would encourage everyone to volunteer in the sport in whatever capacity they can.

Maybe a system like parkrun where non-paddling officials can accrue points towards a "Slalom Volunteer" T Shirt? Or other ideas to encourage volunteers? I'm not convinced by this, I think that the motivations for volunteering are intrinsic, and generally volunteers aren't bothered about reward or even thanks at prizegiving.

djberriman
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Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by djberriman » Sat Apr 30, 2022 9:14 am

Non paddling officials used to be able to achieve points I believe, from memory you filled a card in and got some points, I may be wrong I don't have an old rule book to look through.

The officials ranking only reflects the number of races attended and results achieved, favouring the better paddler from what I can see. It doesn't reflect the hours put in by the volunteer. A typical organiser might for instance commit a week of time once build up and post race work is done (its a lot less than it used to be due to work by Ken and Dave on simply slalom, Dee's entry system and changes to fee structure). A gate judge may only give a couple of hours. That said I doubt most volunteers really do it for a trophy or shirt (most would willing pay for a shirt, most will spend far more in fuel alone attending one race). The main issue would be that it would tie up more volunteer time to run!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by JimW » Sun May 01, 2022 11:33 pm

I have to admit to putting out a whatsapp message this morning desperately asking for 1 more judge so we could start the racing, fortunately we had extra cafe helpers releasing a paddling official from cafe to judge.

There is another way for race organisers to get points/rewards which I'm sure Duncan does sometimes, and a few others, and that is to organise a race for your own division and take part as well as organising. Although given that I needed a nap in the middle of typing this I'm not sure I can actually reccommend it on health grounds.

On the plus side, someone did say at the weekend that they would be interested to learn about setting up the wiring etc. (generally) so now I/we need to work out when and where to do that. I also need to finish my guide to using the permanent wiring and various interface cables that live at Pinkston (which was started by one our parents after the last race we did pre-covid, so 3 years ago?).

We have also introduced a new group of parents to being judging clerks and I think at least 1 of our results clerks was doing that for the first time too. And a new finisher yesterday too. The key is to have at least 2 shifts per run, so parents can pick a slot that allows them to watch their child, or children, or at least some children, AND getting the people in adjacent shifts to talk to each other about the possibility of stepping in, or staying a bit late or whatever to accommodate this if the race runs ahead or behind. They can help each other to see their own kids, by keeping track of each others kids and appearing in control at the critical moment to let the other nip out.

These people are incredibly important, we need them all and more, but we also need to recognise that there is a higher level of expertise that cannot be learned so easily. Do we have anyone who could currently stand in for Ken Baillie, Nick Penfold, Duncan Berriman, Dave Spencer, Dee Lindsay, Andy Grudzinski, or a host of others I will remember later? These are the people who maintain the systems that enable the rest of us to put on races. I received some lovely comments about how well organised our race seemed to be, but honestly if it wasn't for Ken Baillie maintaining and circulating the SCA Tutti equipment and building the site specific stuff for Pinkston (and other venues), Dee Lindsay's online entry system that makes it possible for an internet enabled organiser to process entries online on the day, print the cards, download a file that sets up simply slalom (saves hours if not days of work), print start lists etc, Dave Spencer maintaining and enhancing SS (do all organiser realise how easy it now if to have online results direct from SS if you have internet at your site?), Nick for the website and Duncan for the ranking database, it wouldn't look anywhere near as organised.

Thanks to all volunteers at all levels who make this sport possible.

Patrick O'Hara
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Bedford

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Mon May 09, 2022 10:53 pm

Finding volunteers to help run events is certainly getting harder, this is just as big a problem at the lower division events as it is at those that require timing teams and section judges. Everything that has been said about the need to bring on new volunteers is very true but we also need to look at ways we can reduce the number of volunteers it takes to run a race if we want the sport to be sustainable. If we carry on requiring a small army to run a race we will fail. At our Div 2/3/4 events we need a minimum of 5 people in control at anyone time (1 x timer, 2 x clerks, 1 x results entry, 1 enquires/fixer). It used to be 6 as we needed another person to put the cards out but thanks to Dave Spencer, this information goes straight online. We need to get control down to a single person, penalties and times need to go from the river bank directly into the results system. Using the Slalom Committee reserves to fund this would be great value for money, Dee, Dave, Duncan, Andy and others do great unpaid work on the systems we use but we can't expect them to spend even more time on the development required, it should just be paid for. Alternative lets use something that's already out there, https://www.racegorilla.com/sports/padd ... oe-slalom/ looks good, its definitely not perfect but it's better to be able to run races with a few shortcomings rather than not run them because we don't have enough volunteers.

Patrick

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by djberriman » Wed May 11, 2022 1:26 pm

It should be possible to run control with 3 or 4 but its hard work. We've certainly done it sometimes at Howsham and pretty sure Les Ford will confirm that's what happened at Sowerby.

I did start some work on kit to reduce volunteer requirements and I know some work has been done by others, trouble is its largely a local thing. I know there are home brew beams, timing systems etc. Much of it could be shared.

Personally I have developed a 'cheap' start clock which could be linked to a 2nd clock and would potentially remove the need for pre-start and a starter shouting all day once paddlers got used to it, we certainly managed to race when abroad at the Grotsky senior cup, there was no one on start, just a queue which we joined by bib number and off we went. Someone somewhere was presumably watching to say who started when the beam broke. Vets and Juniors coped without issue.

I have also developed a relatively cheap wireless handset with a touch screen which is designed to be used to input penalties at the gate. It can in theory work up to 3km so should be fine at any site (its use Lora not wifi for those who need to know). Its at the proof of concept stage, and it can transmit penalties to 'control'. Designed so any unit can do any job in the result of failure.

I've not progressed either for quite a while due to work, BAS and life in general and of course there is a cost just buying the bits to play with!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by JimW » Thu May 12, 2022 7:56 pm

I think Hexham CC used to run with 2 or 2.5 people in control, certainly when I helped out Julie did start/finish and I clerked for all judge positions, and although Mike was around I'm not sure he was really doing anything directly just staying clear to sort out tech issues if they occurred, and Chloe was popping in and out to enter results and put cards out (the half person).

Most clubs generally run with 4.5 people in control because it reduces the stress for the individuals - 1 to do start and finish, 2 to clerk for judges and 1 to enter results with someone floating to deal with enquiries/protests/put cards out etc. but if you are less concerned with timely display of results you could make do with 2 people and enter results afterwards if running card based.

However; the latest version of simply slalom is suitable for running lower divisions cardless, which makes 2 people very feasible
If you enable the remote results display (technically you can do this even if you don't actually have a display) and check the box to enter penalties, and then enter the remaining details (total number of gates, which are up gates, and then assign all gates to judge A), when you are running the event you could have the judging clerk working directly in simply slalom, and as they enter results, they can enter the penalties and the time (advised by the start/finish clerk in England & Wales, or by referring to the till roll printer diretly in Scotland) directly as they go instead of filling in cards and passing them around (or maybe use the cards for start/finish clerk to pass the times on?). If you do have a remote display, it will display which gates penalties have been given against, so there is no need to put cards out. If you don't have a spare laptop/monitor to display the remote results, but can get an internet connection (pay as you go 4G dongle works for me at Tully, Pinkston and Alva, probably wouldn't work at Fairnilee though) just use the middle option for remote display and upload directly to https://results.canoeslalom.co.uk as you go and make sure you give paddlers the link. If you can't actually use a remote display at all, although you can input penalties directly you are going to need cards so paddlers can actually see their penalties in case they want to get a transmission check or make a protest - in that case I think you will need 3 people (and always a 0.5 to float around posting results printouts and dealing with checks and protests - although this could perhaps be one of the chief judges team, after all they will be making protest decisions so would actually be a good idea for them to post results and deal with enquiries rather than one of the control team who then has to dash out and find one of them.

Thinking about it, if you have enabled remote results display, you can always view them on the results laptop by browsing directly to the index.html file (or find it and double click on it should open your browser) and then print them with penalties direct from your browser and post up outside control as you normally would with the event summaries from SS.

Strathallan CC ran Alva last weekend with 3 in control (only 1 judge clerk) and someone floating to post results etc. I took an old monitor and hooked the spare laptop up to it so they had remote results display at control, which seemed top be working really well, and I observed coaches after runs scrolling through on the laptop and analysing the runs with their div 3 and 4 paddlers, so although we often dismiss this as over the top for div 3 and 4, if you can provide it, people will make good us of it.

At Pinkston the weekend before we had a tech issue with local remote results display on Saturday (I had misunderstood and had mixed an old display method with the latest and was corrupting the index file locally, although it was not affecting the one on the slalom website which continued to display the results) and ended up putting the cards up, but by Sunday the remote displays were doing their thing and we didn't put any cards out, just summary sheets.

So we do have a lot of stuff in place that is reducing some of the kit we need to take to races (but adding extra monitors) and as we get used to using the latest Simply Slalom it will enable us to reduce the number of people in control too. But of course all these things are being developed by the people I already mentioned (and Jim McPherson who I forgot, although I thought he was unforgettable).

I will need to find time to take a look at Racegorrilla - how does it deal with judges notes for protests etc. or do judges need to juggle a clipboard and a phone/tablet? I am hopeless at touch screen typing, I would really struggle to get notes into an app between competitors, plus rain usually defeats my touch screen, where soggy paper can just about get by.

Patrick O'Hara
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 1:07 pm
Location: Bedford

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by Patrick O'Hara » Thu May 12, 2022 10:59 pm

All good thoughts Duncan and Jim. The developments you've had a go at Duncan sound really interesting.

We ran our 2/3/4 last year card less with results including penalties only displayed on the Internet, we are fortunate to have good 4G coverage so people just viewed them on their phones, seem to work well. In previous years we have had 180 boats going at minute interval through 4 judging positions, I'm a bit nervous around how a single clerk doing direct entry into Simply Slalom including times would cope, has anyone seen this done at comparable scale?

With regards to Race Gorilla and judges notes, its a while since I looked at it but I think judges would need to keep paper notes in case of protest and just enter penalties electronically.

JBS
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Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by JBS » Mon May 23, 2022 4:01 pm

Here in Germany the clubs have to provide judges. A bit like the interclubs, each club gets given a section and they have to cover it. That could be adopted and encourages clubs to drag along family members who might get the bug! Smaller clubs shared sections and a big club gets one section.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by CeeBee » Wed May 25, 2022 9:19 pm

I had this very discussion a few years ago with a member of BC Slalom committee but they were not in favour at that time. It is something we have done at the Scottish Schools events.

However, I can understand the reluctance of newbies to judge at Prem/Div 1 as it can be quite intimidating judging paddlers who tackle the gates with the finest of margins. Maybe potential judges could be paired with a Section judge to get some supervised training first. Paddlers and coaches are much more likely to protest and complain vocally about judging in today's consumer society which puts judges off.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by JimW » Thu May 26, 2022 10:50 pm

CeeBee wrote:
Wed May 25, 2022 9:19 pm
I had this very discussion a few years ago with a member of BC Slalom committee but they were not in favour at that time. It is something we have done at the Scottish Schools events.

However, I can understand the reluctance of newbies to judge at Prem/Div 1 as it can be quite intimidating judging paddlers who tackle the gates with the finest of margins. Maybe potential judges could be paired with a Section judge to get some supervised training first. Paddlers and coaches are much more likely to protest and complain vocally about judging in today's consumer society which puts judges off.
We used the same system somewhere (probably at your suggestion) , either Tully div 1 or one of our early Pinkston races, before I had enough confidence in getting enough volunteers on the day. It is difficult because not all clubs will have the same number of paddlers attending an event, I think we had a look at the start list and grouped several clubs together where they only had 1 or 2 paddlers, and asked them to find 1 judge between them. This could probably be formalised and calculated in the entries system if there was backing for it generally.

After judging at HPP Prem on Sunday, I may never volunteer to judge again (Control, safety, technical all OK), not down to intimidation, purely because I couldn't keep up. My poor section judge had to go back through so many previous paddlers to get my penalties because I was struggling to keep track and write them down. I even had to ask the Jury about a rule clarification on one of their many visits. It was overwhelming!

Seriously though, a lot was done well - it was well stated in the event entry that hassling judges would not be tolerated, and at the judges meeting judges were reminded only to respond to enquiries from the jury, and as far as I could see no-one complained to judges (although I'm sure there was general moaning within earshot). Also on Saturday the judge taking over from me came early to watch me for a while to make sure she was happy about doing it before taking over, I then stayed with her for a while to make sure she was OK, and her coach was going to come back later to make sure she was still OK.
And the only thing I would disagree with is pairing new judges with section judges - they have more to think about than gate judges, so it would be better to pair with gate judges, although less experienced, they have more time to explain what they are doing. I think this does happen quite often, but perhaps it needs to be shouted about more - please volunteer to shadow a judge and learn what is involved.

As for the rare occasion when a friend discovers that they got a 50 in my section, I always point out that I didn't give them a 50, they took a 50 and made me write it down!

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Too few indispensible volunteers

Post by Dee » Thu May 26, 2022 11:51 pm

I’ve also used clubs to provide judges. If a club has 8 or so paddlers at a competition there are probably some additional supporters too so asking them to cover a gate judge position for the weekend seems reasonable and certainly makes it easier from an organising point of view. But I have had one club refuse (this was several years back)

I do think that it is important for gate judging stints to be kept reasonably short as if it’s not too onerous they are more likely to volunteer again
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

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