I am uncomfortable with the idea of holding youngsters back from paddling on bigger water. Firstly, it will slow their development as paddlers, and secondly I don't believe that it will help in preventing injury, in fact I believe that it may increase the risk of injury for a couple of reasons.
The muscle imbalance does seem to be a contributory factor, but if the imbalance comes from paddling, the longer a paddler goes before being introduced to bigger water then surely the imbalance will be worse?
Paddlers need to understand that canoe slalom is a white water sport where immersion in the water is part of the sport. The problem with keeping paddlers away from bigger water is that they spend longer not falling in, and the longer it has been since they last fell in, the more they don't want to fall in. The result of this is that when they get on bigger water they are terrified of capsizing, and their paddling suffers as a result.
Anyone that follows my ramblings on the UK Rivers Guidebook forum will know my feelings about high brace support strokes. This is taught at an early point in many paddlers careers as a method of capsize prevention. Unfortunately it puts the paddler's shoulder in a very vulnerable position. Furthermore, because it doesn't work (this is a radical statement to many, you don't have to believe me, just try it for yourself) this compounds the problem as paddlers desperately slap their paddle one the water while they try to keep their head dry. All the shoulder dislocations I have seen have been related to failed high brace support strokes.
So now when we put our paddlers on bigger water for the first time, they are terrified of falling in, and instead of paddling down the course they go down tapping the surface of the water on each side of the boat while they desperately try to keep their head as far out of the water as possible.
Obviously the above only applies to paddlers new to bigger water. Quite a lot of injuries happen to paddlers who have become comfortable on the water, so there needs to be some investigation of what is happening here. I can only speak from my limited experience, and I still believe the injuries are still related to the high brace support stroke as it is still the last resort of most paddlers when they find themselves capsizing.
I believe there needs to be a radical change in the way new paddlers are coached with the removal of both the high brace and low brace support strokes. I certainly don't teach them to my students, in fact if any of them are seen doing high brace break ins they get told off. I try to teach them that the best way of preventing capsize is by keeping positive pressure on the face of the blade, and this can be achieved with the paddle in a good vertical position on either side of the boat. The shoulder is then in a strong position, and if the support fails you simply follow the paddle into the water.
Unfortunately, as slalom coaches we often don't get the paddlers until after they have already been through some kind of beginners course which has been coached along the lines of the recreational 1 and 2 star awards, so by the time we get them we have to force them to unlearn most of what they have been taught before we can turn them into proper white water paddlers.
Shoulder Injuries in Young Female Paddlers - Shoulder Injuries in Young Female Paddle
Interesting comments from Dave there.
It's all getting quite compelling.
On thing that springs to mind, if Dave is not teaching these strokes to his students and presumably others view it the same, are there then an equal amount of individuals who do teach these strokes. Surely it's about consistency across the board. Perhaps it needs a review!
Due to the nature of the beast different clubs will practice on different water and therefore does that mean that those who are fortunate to practice on the bigger water have a better chance of their bodies adapting to the possible strains?
Are too (D2) those clubs that have not traditionally been involved in slalom and whose youngster just learning by experience or from other paddlers more at risk?
From my personal contact with Kendall early in the topic, I recall stating that I rarely see any form of warm up and warm down at races. Particularly amongst young people. Getting on the water and paddling about for 5 minutes or so is one thing but in what other sport would you not stretch up and down?
I cerrtainly do this myself and will now encourage our youngsters to do the same.
Perhaps this should be common practice - I'm sure that'll provoke comment.
It's all getting quite compelling.
On thing that springs to mind, if Dave is not teaching these strokes to his students and presumably others view it the same, are there then an equal amount of individuals who do teach these strokes. Surely it's about consistency across the board. Perhaps it needs a review!
Due to the nature of the beast different clubs will practice on different water and therefore does that mean that those who are fortunate to practice on the bigger water have a better chance of their bodies adapting to the possible strains?
Are too (D2) those clubs that have not traditionally been involved in slalom and whose youngster just learning by experience or from other paddlers more at risk?
From my personal contact with Kendall early in the topic, I recall stating that I rarely see any form of warm up and warm down at races. Particularly amongst young people. Getting on the water and paddling about for 5 minutes or so is one thing but in what other sport would you not stretch up and down?
I cerrtainly do this myself and will now encourage our youngsters to do the same.
Perhaps this should be common practice - I'm sure that'll provoke comment.
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roodthomas
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Barnsley
I think you have misinterpreted me there Dave. I think its vitally impotant to get young people on big water, but not racing on it until they are ready and experienced on that type of water. If you relate this back to the LTAD model (LTPD in this case) you need to learn to train before you learn to compete. You wouldn't allow an 8 year old do a 400m swim when they arent competent swimmers. You cant realistically stop people from racing, but there is an element of common sense involved.
With regard to teaching people support strokes, the risks of the high brace are obvious!! But the low brace is a very efficient stroke on big water, it is foolish to say don't teach them. I happen to use low braces regularly when crossing waves. It is a great stroke to use to keep a flat boat. Not teaching that is not smart!!
y
With regard to teaching people support strokes, the risks of the high brace are obvious!! But the low brace is a very efficient stroke on big water, it is foolish to say don't teach them. I happen to use low braces regularly when crossing waves. It is a great stroke to use to keep a flat boat. Not teaching that is not smart!!
y
Stretching as part of a warm-up is becoming less common across sports these days. There is evidence that the stretching the muscles before they are warmed up can cause injury, and that it reduces power. I believe the best warm up is probably on the water, though many coaches believe in doing part of the warm up on the bank. Too many padders jump on the water, paddle around fairly aimlessly for a couple of minutes, then sit and wait for their run. It is worth developing a warm-up routine to make sure that all the relevent muscles are up to speed so that the paddlers have something to follow when they get on the water before a race.
Stretching after exercise is good though.
Stretching after exercise is good though.
no one has mentioned rolling in all this. to me if a kid has a bomb proof roll they are less scared of going in on big water.
we have one nipper in our club who learnt to roll last winter in the pool, got some rolling practice in over the summer on fair sized water and will now happily follow us down any stretch of water we race and or train on.
this kid is fairly small but has a good basic technique and if they are spotted doing dodgy bow rudders or support strokes they get ripped a new one, to the point where good technique has become almost essential to their sanity!
i know this won't work for all but if as a coach you drill technique and use appropriate water level to the paddlers ability injuries should be minimised.
however i saw one of our localish paddlers racing at sowerby on saturday doing the worst bow rudders i have seen in a long time. unfortunatly the individual in question has been advised about this several times in the past and just will not listen or learn. there is only so much anyone can do to help, and i fear this kid will only learn the hard way.
but i aggree with dave, high brace support strokes should be banned, and should deffinatly not be taught by most of the recreational drongo coaches. it makes me shudder every time i see the uni coaching their students in the kiddy pool, when all i see is shoulder popping techniques being taught by qualified coaches!
hmmm that was quite the rant in the end!:D
we have one nipper in our club who learnt to roll last winter in the pool, got some rolling practice in over the summer on fair sized water and will now happily follow us down any stretch of water we race and or train on.
this kid is fairly small but has a good basic technique and if they are spotted doing dodgy bow rudders or support strokes they get ripped a new one, to the point where good technique has become almost essential to their sanity!
i know this won't work for all but if as a coach you drill technique and use appropriate water level to the paddlers ability injuries should be minimised.
however i saw one of our localish paddlers racing at sowerby on saturday doing the worst bow rudders i have seen in a long time. unfortunatly the individual in question has been advised about this several times in the past and just will not listen or learn. there is only so much anyone can do to help, and i fear this kid will only learn the hard way.
but i aggree with dave, high brace support strokes should be banned, and should deffinatly not be taught by most of the recreational drongo coaches. it makes me shudder every time i see the uni coaching their students in the kiddy pool, when all i see is shoulder popping techniques being taught by qualified coaches!
hmmm that was quite the rant in the end!:D
Hey, I mentioned rolling! :p
I would have thought that paddlers would continue to make the imbalance worse over time while on white water aswell, it would merely be a case of the muscular imbalance being worse when they started on the white water. The only solution would be better general conditioning!
I would certainly agree that teaching brace strokes is a necessary part of paddling. Everyone at Manchester seems to use them! I would say that part of the problem is inproper technique while using these support strokes, particularly the high brace; not teaching it would just mean people use the wrong technique! One of my observations from Shepperton is that many paddlers did use incorrect support strokes, leaving their shoulders at risk.
In summary, I would have thought it would be important to teach people brace strokes in order to ensure correct technique when they use them!
In every competitive sport I have done (swimming, running, rowing, canoeing) and during weight training sessions, I have been told never to do static stretches before exersise. Canoeing seems to be the worst at following this as far as I can see!
I personally do dynamic stretching (movement, short time, and less intense) before sessions, which also warms up the ligaments in joints much better.
The muscle imbalance does seem to be a contributory factor, but if the imbalance comes from paddling, the longer a paddler goes before being introduced to bigger water then surely the imbalance will be worse?
I would have thought that paddlers would continue to make the imbalance worse over time while on white water aswell, it would merely be a case of the muscular imbalance being worse when they started on the white water. The only solution would be better general conditioning!
With regard to teaching people support strokes, the risks of the high brace are obvious!! But the low brace is a very efficient stroke on big water, it is foolish to say don't teach them. I happen to use low braces regularly when crossing waves. It is a great stroke to use to keep a flat boat.
I would certainly agree that teaching brace strokes is a necessary part of paddling. Everyone at Manchester seems to use them! I would say that part of the problem is inproper technique while using these support strokes, particularly the high brace; not teaching it would just mean people use the wrong technique! One of my observations from Shepperton is that many paddlers did use incorrect support strokes, leaving their shoulders at risk.
In summary, I would have thought it would be important to teach people brace strokes in order to ensure correct technique when they use them!
In every competitive sport I have done (swimming, running, rowing, canoeing) and during weight training sessions, I have been told never to do static stretches before exersise. Canoeing seems to be the worst at following this as far as I can see!
I personally do dynamic stretching (movement, short time, and less intense) before sessions, which also warms up the ligaments in joints much better.
sorry must have missed that part,MikeR wrote:Hey, I mentioned rolling! :p
reading back tho the thing about cranks interests me. why would a cranked paddle (which gives a better wrist position for the power transfer) adversly affect the shoulder?
I have used cranks for more years than i'd care to own up to (lets just say my last pair are 15 years old!) and have never heard of them being detrimental to shoulder stability.
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roodthomas
- Posts: 37
- Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:33 pm
- Location: Barnsley
I believe that there were some references to impropper technique earlier. The new UKCC system is bringing in a more generic canoeing approach when it comes to introduction to the sport. I fear that some of the issues with technique are coming from coaches/leaders that have been practicing impropper technique for quite some time. Maybe there needs to be an analysis of all coaches as to whether they are picking up on poor technique early. I myself have spent quite a lot of my time at uni trying to get people to get back to the basics of the strokes/forward paddling to refelct on body boat and blade. Having come from the recreational side into slalom, I've picked up a lot more on the flaws in technique from playboaters.
It has also been mentioned about rolling. Again, this is a skill that needs to be looked at in depth as it puts a lot of stress on the shoulder. A poor roll can just as easily lead to a dislocation! Its down to coaches to get the corrections as soon as possible before getting on white water.
I too have seen some hideous bow rudders (more whilst I've been in slalom), again coaches need to drill this into their athletes that certain positions leave their shoulder vulnerable. As a stroke, the bow rudder is very effective and efficient, but too far back over the head and its two years out for the athlete.
Warm ups - hugely important for losening up the muscles. EVERYONE should be doing them for ANY activity!! And as Mike has made reference to, dynamic stretches are far more effective than static stretches. Some form of stretching must be incorporated into the warm up! And as Dave has rightly already said, this needs to be after a gentle paddle. Classic example at HPP is to paddle from the get on, to the flat water gates, and then around the orange buoy and back to the get on before doing some turns, (which if done correctly are dynamic stretches), followed by some sprints to get the heart rate up and also prepare the muscles for the high intensity that they will be about to endure.
Stretches before exercise are pointless, stretches after initial exercise will make sure that the muscle is being fully utilised.
After the run/session paddlers should have a gentle paddle around for 10 minutes and again do some turns to get rid of lactic acid and also relax the muscles gently.
Cranks change the position of the shoulder muscles as you pull backward I do believe. It might be that the finer muscles are affected.
It has also been mentioned about rolling. Again, this is a skill that needs to be looked at in depth as it puts a lot of stress on the shoulder. A poor roll can just as easily lead to a dislocation! Its down to coaches to get the corrections as soon as possible before getting on white water.
I too have seen some hideous bow rudders (more whilst I've been in slalom), again coaches need to drill this into their athletes that certain positions leave their shoulder vulnerable. As a stroke, the bow rudder is very effective and efficient, but too far back over the head and its two years out for the athlete.
Warm ups - hugely important for losening up the muscles. EVERYONE should be doing them for ANY activity!! And as Mike has made reference to, dynamic stretches are far more effective than static stretches. Some form of stretching must be incorporated into the warm up! And as Dave has rightly already said, this needs to be after a gentle paddle. Classic example at HPP is to paddle from the get on, to the flat water gates, and then around the orange buoy and back to the get on before doing some turns, (which if done correctly are dynamic stretches), followed by some sprints to get the heart rate up and also prepare the muscles for the high intensity that they will be about to endure.
Stretches before exercise are pointless, stretches after initial exercise will make sure that the muscle is being fully utilised.
After the run/session paddlers should have a gentle paddle around for 10 minutes and again do some turns to get rid of lactic acid and also relax the muscles gently.
Cranks change the position of the shoulder muscles as you pull backward I do believe. It might be that the finer muscles are affected.
This is a common criticism especially from recreational coaches, however I have never seen an injury resulting from doing this, nor can I grasp how such an injury could occurr. It is an appropriate stroke in certain circumstances and has measurable benefits to the paddlers performance.roodthomas wrote:As a stroke, the bow rudder is very effective and efficient, but too far back over the head and its two years out for the athlete.
davebrads wrote:roodthomas wrote:As a stroke, the bow rudder is very effective and efficient, but too far back over the head and its two years out for the athlete.
This is a common criticism especially from recreational coaches, however I have never seen an injury resulting from doing this, nor can I grasp how such an injury could occurr. It is an appropriate stroke in certain circumstances and has measurable benefits to the paddlers performance.
Dave this is how I dislocated my shoulder by not rotating my torso and having my top hand behind my head. I think that it is simply a matter of rotating your torso to ensure this doesn't happen.
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kendall chew
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:21 pm
- Location: Cheshire
John,jke wrote:For what it's worth I suffered my first dislocation (well actually subluxation) almost exactly a year ago and I'm neither young nor female, being a lighter framed male and having been paddling for 40 years. And I know about technique.
I remember feeling tired (latter part of an Upper Dart trip), nervous and hesitant, and it happened on almost flat water on breaking in. I must have hit a rock but have no recollection of it happening.
A common theme in this thread seems to be muscle imbalance. After being referred to a sports trainer at my local sports centre I was told it was likely to happen because our sport builds up the front of the shoulder but not behind. And in my case I believe a contributing factor was damage to a rotator cuff a few years previously (sliding a heavy canoe along a hitop - technique gets forgotten when you're up a ladder), leaving the back of the shoulder even more withered. An accident waiting to happen.
I was given exercises, firstly to generally strengthen the shoulder and then specifically for the rotator cuff muscles. I've been doing that ever since and will expect to do so for ever (well as long as I paddle anyway).
Interesting stuff. Fatigue, psychology, technique, strength are all interlinked and, I am absolutely certain that there is no "single magic Bullet" but,I hope that we may raise awareness of the problem across the sport and perhaps alter a few dogmas, who knows? We are beginning to look at training methods from day1 - This is a boat and that's the front bit, to educating the paddler of the reasons why we should shout at someone from the bank. It may take a while.
Regards,
Kendall