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Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:29 pm
by katonas
Well said Mark, you have my vote.
I'd also no longer be a Vet so I'd feel young again...for another 3 years at least.
The current Vet league is a joke looking at numbers in the yearbooks :
2006 yearbook
5 paddlers raced in K1M Prem/1
0 paddlers raced in K1W Prem/1 and 2/3
11 paddlers raced in K1M 2/3
0 paddlers raced in C1
2007 yearbook
5 paddlers raced in K1M Prem/1
1 paddlers raced in K1W Prem/1
12 paddlers raced in K1M 2/3
0 paddlers raced in K1W 2/3
2 paddlers raced in C1 Prem/1
Talk about a minority sport within a minority sport.
However, numbers of DV who raced:
2006 yearbook
K1M Prem 10
Div1 36
Div2 49
Div3 63
Div4 35
K1W Prem 1
Div1 6
Div2 12
Div3 6
Div4 17
C1 Prem 3
Div1 3
Div2 3
Div3 3
Div4 3
2007 yearbook
K1W Prem 0
Div1 7
Div2 11
Div3 12
Div4 15
K1M Prem 10
Div1 38
Div2 56
Div3 64
Div4 35
C1 Prem 4
Div1 1
Div2 4
Div3 5
Div4 4
Apolygies for not including C2 numbers, which probably by themselves exceed Vet numbers.
So, a tiny proportion of Vets are in the Vet league. DV's have voted with their feet/paddles already.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:33 pm
by Anne
I do feel this needs really careful thought as to how it is set up and run. It is too late for this years ACM as motions had to be in some time ago - and the agenda has gone to print for distribution in the next couple of days.
Hoever I am sure that in the short term we could chat to Nick and perhaps he could come up with something like the junior ranking.
My proposal would be to set up a working party to really plan & think about it properly, with full public consultation and to submit it to the ACM next year. I have planned to include something along these lines in my report under plans for the future.
Anyone fancy heading it up???
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:53 pm
by Mick h
I think you guys are missing the whole point of the Veteran (purple bib) ranking system. It allows paddlers who have have put there hours in judging and organising over the years still to paddle the courses and races of there choice. I thought we where concerned about driving people away from the sport well go down this route and you will.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:48 pm
by Nick Penfold
Ah, right guys. It's me that works out the junior leagues. I'm pleased they are popular, but it's quite a slog so no, I won't take it on for Vets. Any of you volunteering?
I did it to motivate young, hopefully developing paddlers who are among the best in their age group in the country and deserve to be proud of it, but struggle in the overall rankings against older, bigger paddlers.
You older guys really don't need that. Oh, and not everyone particularly wants their age made public.
Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:52 pm
by katonas
mwilk wrote:And someone to compile the M40, M50 and M60 leagues tables each week [not likely to be as big a task it is for the J-leagues; I’d happily volunteer]
Nick, you have a volunteer. I would suggest compiling a DV list for final 2007 results to start. It is nonsense to recognise a Veteran British National Champion, and not even mention the highest ranked DV.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:09 am
by Carlr
Well said Nick, some of us have come back into the sport to race against the younger kids to see how we hold up. I personally race as a senior (even though over 40) and vowed never to race as a Vet, if this Master/Vets league does go ahead i believe all ledgible paddles should have to register. It annoys me when i enter races and the organiser puts DV on start list when i have stated senior, this is because of the date of birth on entry cards. If people want to race as Vets great but leave that choice to the paddlers and not the race organisers.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:01 am
by katonas
Nick Penfold wrote:Oh, and not everyone particularly wants their age made public.
As Carl points out, the DV system already tells everyone you're over 35 when people might be most sensitive about their age. Personally the older I get, the prouder I'll be to say how old I am. If I'm still racing at 80 I'll put '80 and proud of it' on my boat. 
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:36 pm
by Canadian Paddler
'80 and proud of it'
is fine, but do you want to publish that not only are you being thrashed by those young enough to be your children (or garndchildren!) but also those ten years your senior? :O
I have been paddling DV for mumble mumble years now, and still get beaten by those older than me. Just not many paddling now that did so when I started.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:23 pm
by katonas
I'm getting thrashed by paddlers young enough to be my grandchildren, and a lot older than me already, and thats fine.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:46 pm
by mwilk
some of us have come back into the sport to race against the younger kids to see how we hold up.
What I proposed doesn't stop you doing this; you would still show in the ranking position in your normal division, with all other age groups, as now. But, as with the Juniors, you would also see yourself position in a separate league with racers in your own age group.
Re: Mick H comments; I had said in my proposal to leave the Vets league as it is if it is still wanted by some for good reason. As Katonas' stats have shown the bulk of the Vets are DV anyway.
Oh, and not everyone particularly wants their age made public.
Your date of birth is on the entry card anyway. If someone wants to pretend that they are younger than they are and be shown in the proposed 40-49 age group rather than, say, their actual 60+ age group, that's fine - as long as they don't do it the other way around [which isn't likely anyway]
I did it to motivate young, hopefully developing paddlers who are among the best in their age group in the country and deserve to be proud of it, but struggle in the overall rankings against older, bigger paddlers.
You older guys really don't need that.
Totally disagree - I struggle in overall ranking against younger fitter paddlers. Are you saying that I shouldn't get the same satisfaction from the sport as the Juniors ?
Clearly, from what Anne has said, it's too late for this year, but we shouldn't let it go.
Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:19 pm
by katonas
I've put links to amalgamated K1M veteran ranking for Prem and Div1 on the Vet champion poll. It was fairly easy to copy the data from canoeslalom.uk into excel, but would be even easier with the original data in excel or other spreadsheet. Perhaps it is enough to have an end of yr list, as during the yr you can see how the other DV paddlers are doing.
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:31 pm
by Dee
[It annoys me when i enter races and the organiser puts DV on start list when i have stated senior, this is because of the date of birth on entry cards.]
There is a simple way round this - don't put your date of birth on the card. No dob = senior by default
Juniors must put their date of birth on the card to race as a junior and to claim lower entry fees.
If you are in K1M prem and don't want to be shown as a DV in the year book then let me know your bib number or you may find that DV appears in any case.
Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:35 pm
by katonas
Carlr wrote:if this Master/Vets league does go ahead i believe all ledgible paddles should have to register.
Merging DV and V results at the end of the year might be an alternative. It might be a better way to choose the National Veteran Champion for 2008, which you could well be in the running for Carl.
K1M Prem Veteran results 2007
K1M Div1 Veteran results 2007
Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:41 pm
by katonas
Posted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:00 am
by katonas
Any Excel experts out there ?
How do you add the highest 4 or 5 numbers from a row of numbers without using the sort function or having to select them manually ?