Div 4 eligibility and harmonisation of rules

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:50 am

There appears to be a lot of confusion - even amongst event organisers - as to eligibility to paddle in div 4 events where the paddler(s) are ranked in other disciplines.

C2
At Howsham Weir my daughter (div 3 k1) and a friend (div 2 K1) had there entry accepted for div 4 C2 but were then disqualified, after their first run, as being ineligible and not allowed a second run. At the Dolphin Centre Slalom in February several C2 crews containing div 1 paddlers were accepted and (according to the results) promoted based on comparison to K1M promotion times.

C1
After reaching 3300 points in div3 k1 on Saturday at Oughtibridge my daughter switched her Sunday entry to div 4 K1 (which she has already paddled in this year). Another competitor claimed she was ineligible and had to enter div 3, but the organisers upheld her entry.

My reading of the rules is:

"Any Competitor wishing to compete in C1 and currently
ranked higher than Division 2 in any other category, must
compete in Division 3, unless it is considered more appropriate
for them to compete in a higher division, in which case,
application must be made to the Ranking Status Officer."
- Higher than div 2 means div 1 or prem (if it included div 2, it would say div 2 or higher), so a div 2 K1 paddler is eligible for div 4 C1 (unless previously ranked).

"New C2 pairings:-
* Except as provided below, new C2 pairings containing a
Competitor currently, or previously ranked in any category
in Division 2 or above, must compete in Division 2/3
and register as such with the Bib Officer and comply with
current Bib regulations.
* Any new C2 pairings containing a Competitor who has
never been ranked higher than Division 4 must compete
as a Division 4 crew.
* Any new C2 pairing who consider that it is more appropriate
for them to compete in a higher division than as
provided above must apply for Ranking Status with evidence
to support their application."
- This seems a bit incompatible with C1 - this rule clearly (to me) says that unless one of the crew is unranked in any discipline, a crew containing a paddler ranked in div 2 or above in any discipline cannot enter div 4.

Could the rules be harmonised so that for C1 and C2 the eligibility is clearly shown to either include or exclude those ranked in div 2?

Could eligibility be summed up in a nice clear table which could, perhaps, be displayed at div 4 events at control along with fees and age calculator?

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:25 am

I don't see the issue re C2.

The reason it is different is there are two paddlers. If one has never been ranked then the boat is allowed to enter Div 4.

This means a coach can take a young/non paddler to an event and paddle with them perhaps helping them overcome there fear of the moving water and means that on another occaision they may paddle themselves in K1.

If the paddlers are/have been ranked then they must enter Div 3.

The rules all seems pretty clear to me.

The only reason this was an issue in particular at Howsham weir is that there was a 2/3 which involves shooting the weir and a seperate short course flat water Div4 event.

If it had been a Div 3/4 then it would have been possible to transfer their entry to the Div 3 event on discovery of the incorrect entry.

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:48 am

The current rules cover all eventualities but are not easy to follow and easier to misinterpretate. An ammendment to the rules was discussed at an ACM in recent years but thown out due to lack of understanding of the current rules.

A new proposal has been produced and will be on the agenda to clarify the rules, be easier to understand and make it the same for all classes.

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:00 am

I agree that the C2 rule appears clear (although apparently organisers don't all treat it the same way) and I had no intention of singling out Howsham as being unfair in any way - their treatment met my strict interpreatation of the rules (although having accepted the entry initially after discussion of eligibility, I might have let them have their second run, as they wanted to, and discounted them from the results).

The incompatibility (to me) between C1 and C2 is that two paddlers ranked in div 2 for K1 can (apparently) each enter div 4 in C1, but cannot enter in C2 even if they are paddling with a div 3 partner. Why not harmonise this and agree that div 2 paddlers are eligible or ineligible for div 4 in both categories. I agree that there is a need for exemption where one of the C2 paddlers is unranked for the situation in which a coach or parent (say) may want to introduce a new paddler and may want to take them down as a participating passenger in a C2.

As a supplementary question, what happens to a paddler who is already competing in div 4 C1 (or C2) when they are promoted in K1. Again, I have heard people say that this allows continued eligibility in div 4 until they are promoted in the relevant discipline. I can't see anything which clarifies this. If you are promoted to div 3 in K1 is there an implied promotion to div 3 in C2, similarly if promoted to div 2 in K1 is there an implied promotion to div 3 in C1?

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:04 am

To Granddad

Thanks - if the committee couldn't agree the ammendment as the rules were unclear, perhaps it is no surprise that we can't. Would it be possible to summarise the current understanding here as guidance as to what is understood. I understand that the guidance would be unofficial and that the rules are what apply until any ammendment has been approved.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:27 am

carealto wrote:As a supplementary question, what happens to a paddler who is already competing in div 4 C1 (or C2) when they are promoted in K1. Again, I have heard people say that this allows continued eligibility in div 4 until they are promoted in the relevant discipline. I can't see anything which clarifies this. If you are promoted to div 3 in K1 is there an implied promotion to div 3 in C2, similarly if promoted to div 2 in K1 is there an implied promotion to div 3 in C1?

If you are already competing in Div 4 in the C1 or C2 you continue to compete in Div 4 until you earn promotion in the C1 or C2 even if you have been promoted in the K1.

One of my C2 partners and I were in Div 4 for ages even after promotions! Another partner and I were "uplifted" to Div 2/3 by an organiser as we were both ranked paddlers and I had to point out that the organiser was wrong as we were a pre-exisiting crew and could not be "uplifted" until we earnt promotion. There is nothing in the rules that allows for implied promotion and nor should there be.

Summary

C2

Div P-3 + Div 4/ unranked = Div 4
Div 3 + Div 3 = Div 4
Div P-2 + Div P-3 = Div 2/3

C1

Div 2-4 = Div 4
Div P-1 = Div 3

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:12 am

Munchkin, just to confirm, is your reply the new proposal, as the current rules say "new C2 pairings containing a
Competitor currently, or previously ranked in any category
in Division 2 or above, must compete in Division 2/3" i.e. Div 3+Div 3 can be div 4 but P-2+Div 3 must be div 2/3

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:21 pm

carealto wrote:Munchkin, just to confirm, is your reply the new proposal, as the current rules say "new C2 pairings containing a
Competitor currently, or previously ranked in any category
in Division 2 or above, must compete in Division 2/3" i.e. Div 3+Div 3 can be div 4 but P-2+Div 3 must be div 2/3

Nope, trying to post too quickly. See modified post.

I am not proposing changes as the rules make sense to me (even if they are not written clearly!).

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:34 pm

Having read through all the posts and those on previous threads I think there is a very strong argument to have the rules rewritten (again) very clearly as I think there are instances where "rule speak" still makes them unclear.

If you "know" what the rule is they are likely to seem clear, but if you are trying to navigate them as a relative newcomer then I would argue there is still ambiguity in places.

I think there is an argument for someone who does not know the rules inside out to copy edit the rules and then send them for approval. That way the ambiguities are high-lighted then can be amended accordingly - just a thought

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:33 pm

If you think our rules are bad try reading the international ones!

Ours are a mish mash of international and national rules making them unclear. The international ones are also a mish mash of languages translated to English!!!

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:38 pm

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make ours clearer

Also if there is an issue with the international rules viz translation I might be persuaded to look at them

It depends on what language they were originated in ? ???

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:51 pm

Russian, French, Spanish, English and another one that I can't remember (don't you always forget the things you revised immediately after the exam is over?!?!)...

slink · Post by **slink** » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:38 pm

Try this that I put together for our event last weekend...

New C2 Pairings

Steve

carealto · Post by **carealto** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:26 am

Slink - Presumably this only applies if the pairing have not already competed in (and not been promoted from) div 4, as Munchkin says. I will print out your really useful table, laminate it and stick it up at control for the Tyne Green Country Park S.C div 4 which Hexham Canoe Club are holding on Sunday. Could the table be incorporated into the Yearbook / Rules / Organiser's Pack?
It would be even better if it could incorporate the rules for K1 / C1 paddlers (I have just realised that I have come at this from a "K1 first" perspective and that someone could have started in C1 and be starting in K1 as a second discipline.

I can't really see why the rules say that a div 2 paddler can paddle in div 4 in C1 (or K1 if C1 is there first discipline) but not (even with a div 3 paddler) in C2.

boatmum · Post by **boatmum** » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:03 pm

Russian, French, Spanish, English and another one that I can't remember (don't you always forget the things you revised immediately after the exam is over?!?!)

So there is no agreed source language for agreeing international rules?

For examples a number of other sports agree at international level that the working language will be English or French etc?

Seems strange to have 4! Which is probably why there is a wee bit of ambiguity in the wording??