How long should protest time be? - Just wonder what paddlers think....

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:37 pm

Hmm thats different to my 2011 rule book and the online rules

see UK C 36.2 - 15 minutes after the display of the results for the last competitor in that run.

Page 89

a run is run 1 or run 2 it does not mention class.

So it looks like the rule adopted at the ACM hasn't been updated or I've lost the addendum

Ken Trollope · Post by **Ken Trollope** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:00 am

The rule in the yearbook is as published in the Agenda for the 2010 ACM and voted on and passed.
The Minutes however seem to have changed the wording from run to class and will be reported under matters arising before the 2010 minutes are approved at this yuears ACM.

So the Rule is :-
-It is submitted no more than 15 minutes after the display of the results for the last Competitor in that run.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:23 am

That probably explains why everyone is so confused, I'm glad its not just me! The rule book rules!

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:37 am

Actually the motion was amended pre voting as last competitor in the class allows you to protest the first run up to 15 minutes after the end of the second run

not the intention, and specifically why the motion was changed by the proposer. The MINUTES should be taken as correct, the Agenda is often changed before votes.

So we need a form of words that says you can protest up to 15 minutes after the end of the the last competitor in the class completes the same run as you are protesting.

Without opening up the can of worms of reruns, and taking runs out of order.

By the way, one of the reasons for this was that all classes had 1 hour ptotest time, except the last. So if the last two classes were C1M and C1W, and teh C1M class ended at 16:00, with the C1W class ending at 16:10, protest time finished at 16:25 for C1W, but 17:00 for C1M. A rule more honoured in the breach than the practice.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:43 am

Canadian PAddler wrote:Actually the motion was amended pre voting as last competitor in the class allows you to protest the first run up to 15 minutes after the end of the second run not the intention, and specifically why the motion was changed by the proposer. The MINUTES should be taken as correct, the Agenda is often changed before votes.

This concurs with my memory of the meeting. I was surprised by Ken's post and assumed that my memory was wrong...

Ken Trollope · Post by **Ken Trollope** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:22 am

Minutes should have reflected change to agenda.

Nick Penfold · Post by **Nick Penfold** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:24 am

"If you want it extending to say 30 mins then bear in mind we will all end up sat on the bank for 30 mins before we can go for lunch or take down a course."
Time to review "protest time" in this respect. One thing worse than a long spell of watching paddlers on a cold, wet day is sitting in the same place not watching paddlers as it gets colder and wetter and you are only there for "protest time".
Protests never lead to re-runs, they are resolved for or against the paddler by the jury on dry land. The jury needs to be able to find the judges to discuss protests, but it doesn't have to be on the river bank. So (unless there are re-runs, and we almost always know about them as soon as the need for one arises) why don't we let the judges go somewhere dry, let takedown/course change go ahead and so on?

PaulBolton · Post by **PaulBolton** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:16 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:"If you want it extending to say 30 mins then bear in mind we will all end up sat on the bank for 30 mins before we can go for lunch or take down a course."
Time to review "protest time" in this respect. One thing worse than a long spell of watching paddlers on a cold, wet day is sitting in the same place not watching paddlers as it gets colder and wetter and you are only there for "protest time".
Protests never lead to re-runs, they are resolved for or against the paddler by the jury on dry land. The jury needs to be able to find the judges to discuss protests, but it doesn't have to be on the river bank. So (unless there are re-runs, and we almost always know about them as soon as the need for one arises) why don't we let the judges go somewhere dry, let takedown/course change go ahead and so on?

Couldn't agree with Nick more. Sitting on the bank at the end of events as the car park empties isn't a lot of fun. Definitely wouldn't want to sit there for 30 minutes.

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:59 pm

Part of the discussion at the ACM was on this line.

I follow this procedure when I am chair at an event. Last paddler down, ensure no catch up, and that we have a good time for them, so no reruns, then ask judges to go to a central location. Same happens at US events, but not at Internationals, yet....

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:30 pm

Interesting that it is 15mins after the end of the class..... This is not the impression I've been given; I confess I didn't check the new wording in the Year Book

although I might still have been confused even if I had

15 mins is still fairly tight for those at the end of their class. I agree with CP/NP et al that there is no need to keep judges waiting during protest time (though I think I would hold off taking the course down). Also most of protest time for ranking runs gets used up by judges runs anyway.

So why not make it 30mins for ranked classes; what do we have to loose. I can't see it having much impact on anyone. I really hated telling someone they were too late to protest. Just felt like adding insult to injury.