How long should protest time be? - Just wonder what paddlers think....

Dee · Post by **Dee** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:58 pm

Protest time has recently been shortened to 15 mins for all paddlers (it used to be 15 mins after the end of the class I think).

I believe the reason for this was to give all paddlers equal opportunity, but does it do this and is it reasonable.

Some scenarios:

- card not up when you get off the water; you go change and by the time you are back you have 2 mins to find coach/parents for discussion or money

- card goes up promptly, so promptly that you are still on the water at the bottom of course waiting for the next two paddlers who have been delayed. By the time you are off water and at the top of the course you could be out of time

- you're pretty sure you didn't hit that gate, but as long as you get a result in the top 10 you will get the points you need, so won't need to protest. But to be sure you want to wait until the end of the class. Option only available to some paddlers

- you ask for a transmission check but the added delay takes you over the time.

I know that a someone missed the boat at Shepperton, and there have be a couple of others I'm aware of. Is 15 minutes enough. Should we:

- leave it as 15 minutes
-make it 30mins (or other) for a protest (but limit it to, say, 15 mins to request a rerun to avoid keeping judges on the bank at the end of the day)?
- revert to the old rule so that you can see the rest of the class before making a decision?
- disallow protests and limit paddlers to transmission checks/requests for information only.
- or......

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Dee wrote:- card goes up promptly, so promptly that you are still on the water at the bottom of course waiting for the next two paddlers who have been delayed. By the time you are off water and at the top of the course you could be out of time

- you're pretty sure you didn't hit that gate, but as long as you get a result in the top 10 you will get the points you need, so won't need to protest. But to be sure you want to wait until the end of the class. Option only available to some paddlers

1. I agree. I mentioned it at the ACM last year as it is not fair in places like LLandysul where there is a long walk back to control!

2. That shouldn't be a problem as it is 15 minutes from the last card of that class going up...

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:32 pm

Dee wrote:Some scenarios:

- card not up when you get off the water; you go change and by the time you are back you have 2 mins to find coach/parents for discussion or money

- card goes up promptly, so promptly that you are still on the water at the bottom of course waiting for the next two paddlers who have been delayed. By the time you are off water and at the top of the course you could be out of time

- you're pretty sure you didn't hit that gate, but as long as you get a result in the top 10 you will get the points you need, so won't need to protest. But to be sure you want to wait until the end of the class. Option only available to some paddlers

- you ask for a transmission check but the added delay takes you over the time.

I know that a someone missed the boat at Shepperton, and there have be a couple of others I'm aware of. Is 15 minutes enough. Should we:

- leave it as 15 minutes
-make it 30mins (or other) for a protest (but limit it to, say, 15 mins to request a rerun to avoid keeping judges on the bank at the end of the day)?
- revert to the old rule so that you can see the rest of the class before making a decision?
- disallow protests and limit paddlers to transmission checks/requests for information only.
- or......

Almost all of the above have affected us

At Abbey Rapids with two ways to the campsite and a long walk to the results board then campsite to locate each other and get back - fifteen minutes isn't enough, I'm saying it's different for different venues

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:06 pm

I must admit I didn't like this when it was changed but having lived with it I think it is fair.

Firstly if you are going to protest then I guess you should do it immediately rather than wait to see how other people do, it costs nothing if you protest is upheld. I think this is one of the reasons this was done, to stop a glut of protests towards the end of a class from people waiting to see if its worth a 'speculative' protest.

Secondly its fair on all, those running at the end of a class have only ever had 15 minutes, the new system is fair to all.

As far as I know it is from your card going up, not the end of your run.

Hopefully organisers will be reasonable and if you have been sat on the water at say Tully while rafts coming down waiting for the next paddler then they will take that into account. Similarly if you card is delayed then again they should be reasonable.

It also makes it easier for organisers as the judge(s) involved will still be on station or at most 15 minutes away, rather than having to find someone who may be long gone or on the water.

If you want it extending to say 30 mins then bear in mind we will all end up sat on the bank for 30 mins before we can go for lunch or take down a course.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:23 pm

I've actually been back and checked the rule and it is 15 minutes after the display of the result of the last competitor, so what is the issue?

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:00 pm

It says last competitor in that run. Does that mean all entrants or your division?

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:22 pm

Your class within that division.

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:28 am

cheers Michelle that's what I thought.

still think it isn't long enough for some venues. At Abbey Rapids in the rain in took a good 10/15 minutes to negotiate the rocks in the rain to get back to control, after getting him off and sending him off to change - waiting for others in front with boats etc.

campbell · Post by **campbell** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:26 am

I'm surprised to hear about this new ruling... I wasn't aware of it!

In Prem races, I am one of the last competitors in my class to race (indeed this year, as bib 1, I am the last to start).

I normally travel to Prem races alone.... no parents, no coach etc. (Yes, I have superb access to coaching through the World Class system, but these coaches very rarely attend Prem races).

15mins is tight.... if I wait for the next 2 paddlers (often after a longer gap between classes), then I warm-down for 10mins, then walk up to results, this leaves all of 0 minutes to run to the car to get some money and write out a protest form!

Ofcourse, I could walk up to check the results first, then warm-down if no protest is required. Even then, it's pretty tight. Maybe I should tuck a fiver (is that how much a protest costs?) inside my neoprene shorts incase I need it. I might be doing that from now on!

Campbell

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:44 am

campbell wrote:Maybe I should tuck a fiver (is that how much a protest costs?) inside my neoprene shorts incase I need it. I might be doing that from now on!

Campbell

Don't use coins though, in any combination, it could lead to some discomfort.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:09 am

campbell wrote:I'm surprised to hear about this new ruling... I wasn't aware of it!

Ofcourse, I could walk up to check the results first, then warm-down if no protest is required. Even then, it's pretty tight. Maybe I should tuck a fiver (is that how much a protest costs?) inside my neoprene shorts incase I need it. I might be doing that from now on!

Oh dear, guess you didn't read the ACM minutes (which is far quicker than attending the ACM, though just as dull!!!)...

"5.21 Protest Time
Amend rule C.36.2 (page 89)
UK 36.2 A Pprotest is considered only when:
- It is submitted in writing on the appropriate form.
- It is submitted no more than 1 hour after the official posting of the results for the last competitor in the category, or for the last category, 15 minutes after display of the result for the last competitor of the day. in the class.
…
This was handled under rule 5.9 (the 75/25) rule, and duly passed with 60 votes for the motion, 6 votes against and 4 abstentions."

Though if you were the last class to go down this was the rule anyway...

More importantly I would make sure you have a £5 note, £5 of coins could get very distracting

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:47 am

and no offence but I wouldn't want a fiver that had been in anybodies shorts. Maybe you could sign it so it would give people the opportunity to refuse if offered it with change. On the flip side it WILL be worth more than a fiver after 2012.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:50 am

Neil H wrote:and no offence but I wouldn't want a fiver that had been in anybodies shorts.

That's why you should wear a bikini - plenty of room for a £5 up top and its not going to shock anyone when you whip it out

Canadian Paddler · Post by **Canadian Paddler** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:23 pm

I think you will find most organisers/Juries are human (CD and self excepted) and will accept that you have been on the water, may have had a long walk from the finish/do not have protest fee in your paddling kit. So will accept protests and wait for money.

As Munchkin says, this has been the rule for the last class for a long time, so this was making it fairer for all, including the volunteers who judge. (Valuing volunteers, where have I heard that?)

Neil H · Post by **Neil H** » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:21 pm

Munchkin wrote:That's why you should wear a bikini - plenty of room for a £5 up top and its not going to shock anyone when you whip it out

I think it would be shock enough that I was wearing a bikini to whip it out of. I'm not sure there'd be plenty of room either once I 'd squeezed in.

I have heard there are certain establishments where you can tuck cash in though.