Time for a change??

Vkcmikey · Post by **Vkcmikey** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:20 pm

or even:
http://www.alge-timing.com/alge....r-e.htm

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:11 pm

In response to the last question, most probably now use a petrol genny as the main power source although slaloms a few years back ran off a couple of car batteries.

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:35 pm

I think we are all agreed there needs to be progress and we need to start the elimination of cards and enable online entry, both details and payment. Where we disagree is on the pace of implementation and it is my view that we cannot do all this instantly but we can and should start.

As to the issue of what is needed at the next race for promotion I do this for all the Scottish paddlers and it is on the SCA site however I still get the question "What position do they need to get to get those points?"...........

andya · Post by **andya** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:16 pm

PeterC wrote:however I still get the question "What position do they need to get to get those points?"...........

That ones easy. I've made a spreadsheet that prints on one side of A4. Gives points for any number of paddlers from 5 to 31 entries.

If its a big entry of say 56 .. then thats just twice the 28 entry table. Simple, and instantly gives points gained while looking at the cards.

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:24 pm

Yep Andy - however the question is usually before you know which race they will be entering next let alone the number of entries!!!

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:00 am

PeterC wrote:I think we are all agreed there needs to be progress and we need to start the elimination of cards

Nope, I disagree to an extent.

Yes at P/1 level where the timing team have the kit and ability to make it work but as a part-time organiser of lower division events I disagree for those events.

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:38 pm

OK Munchkin but I think we actually agree. If the pace of change continues it will not be too long before we can run a slalom on an iPad 5 with entries using contactless payments from mobile phones and maybe we can run lower divisions this way. Indeed at the moment I do not know how we would run lower division races without cards.

andya · Post by **andya** » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:10 pm

PeterC wrote: Indeed at the moment I do not know how we would run lower division races without cards.

Some potential answers to "how to run cardless" during the event in the thread above.

I still get the question "What position do they need to get to get those points?"........... the question is usually before you know which race they will be entering next let alone the number of entries!!!

I don't understand the problem?

Previous points are on this website, or if a recent event hopefully the person knows their position(s) and number of paddlers(s). Then all you need is a simple ready reckoner, a one page A4 printout of a spreadsheet.

PM me if you want a copy of the one I created , it really is very simple.

Munchkin · Post by **Munchkin** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:50 am

andya wrote:
PeterC wrote: Indeed at the moment I do not know how we would run lower division races without cards.

Some potential answers to "how to run cardless" during the event in the thread above.

And all very costly to individual clubs. I cannot see what the issue is with cards at lower divisions. The card's at events themselves are not a problem that need to be resolved, it is the arduous admin requirements after the event that is the issue. I am not sure that we can resolve that issue as we need the ranking compilers to be involved in that process.

Mark Shaw · Post by **Mark Shaw** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:28 pm

If the responsibility for generating cards was moved from the paddler to the organising club then I bet they would find an alternative workaround soon enough that replaced cards - just a thought

Seedy Paddler · Post by **Seedy Paddler** » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:53 pm

Mark Shaw wrote:If the responsibility for generating cards was moved from the paddler to the organising club then I bet they would find an alternative workaround soon enough that replaced cards - just a thought

Mark - I hope that is in jest othewise it is the statement of extreme arrogance.

If an individual find filling their details onto a card as a problem I suggest that asking an organiser to take reposnsibility for > 100 entries as ludicrous to teh poiint of insanity,

Yes we would find a get around - it is called resignation, let all the digital techno geeks step up and run the events and check ranking etc.

We rely on a small petrol gennie for power at our site, data manipulation is undertaken late into the evening whilst paddlers are getting food and sleep, We have had serious problems with generators blowing up and taking laptops and printers with them. We finished the event and awarded prizes on the basis of shuffling cards. The final results were subsequently re-entered and points etc. calculated offline after the event.

All for progress but suggest you progress on the basis of advice from organisers - they are actually as important as the paddlers.

djberriman · Post by **djberriman** » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:19 am

I am sorry to hear that your kit blew up, thats very unfortunate, for future reference can I suggest that organisers use surge protected power strips between the genny and all kit, that should prevent any such loss, they are cheap and most of us probably have some at home, if you can afford it (or know an IT geek with one who can lend you one) a small ups would not only keep the power available whilst you switch off and refuel the genny but better protect against surges. A suitable UPS can be had for £60 or less which whilst quite a big cost can be used for many years and at many events, perhaps shared between clubs. Its also worth always getting someone who can to check the output voltage from your gennie before use (as well as checking the oil etc).

As for working late into the night can I suggest you take a look at Kens simply slalom, it makes data entry minimal (just the bib number for most paddlers) and works out all the results etc for you. I have used and seen it used at many events and a typical event should all be done and dusted by the end of the event save for double checking the cards against the results to pick up any data entry errors - though this could be done at the event if you have enough volunteers. When I've used it at a double a couple of people managed to put the late entries and amendments in on both days within an hour or so. Ken has done a great job with his software keeping it very simply and easy to use and all you need to run an event is power, one windows computer and a printer.

It would be nice if we could have some debate on the subjects of organising/running events/ranking systems etc without someone threatening to resign. It seems to happen every year when any attempt is made to change the current systems. The current system does work for the most part and the volunteers who make it all happen do a great job but some feel some parts could be improved. We can't get around the fact we have systems in place based around year end promotion and events based around in year/event promotion, the contradiction causes all sorts of isssues as I'm sure we are all aware. We also have to be aware at some point in the future we may lose the ability to use cheques and I guess that our sport may one day be viewed as quaint when we only accept card entries by post. Hopefully we can move with the times without throwing the baby out with the water.

Perhaps any such suggestions will fail at the first hurdle, perhaps they are wrong, badly informed or unworkable but without discussing them we will never know. Motions have to be put forward to allow changes to be authorised or even piloted to see if they are workable and to find out in/at a real life event what works and what doesn't. It will take a period of time to make any such changes and mistakes will be made but surely its better that we try?

The changes suggested could probably be made to Kens software, if he is willing, so it would still be possible to run an event with just one computer, though it may be easier and involve less
paper/cards if 2 or 3 could be used. Most importantly it should be kept simple so anyone can use it - as was proved at our event where I showed a number of people how to use Kens system and within a few minutes left them to it so I could get on with other duties.

Not quite sure what your issue is with digital techno geeks (or why anyone who work with computers has to be insulted) - plenty of them do step up and run events and help at many others!

PeterC · Post by **PeterC** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:05 am

I am probably considered by some a Geek and yes I do try and do everything on computers. Yes we do check the output on generators but it does change and even with a surge protector the voltage creeping up to 390V has interesting consequences! We have had this and fried network switches.

A geek will also point out that while I have great admiration for Ken's programme and its excellent simplicity, it is running on Excel on a single computer without the constant backup possible with a proper database system and as such is capable of corruption when it may become an interesting challenge to recover from. Yes I know you can take regular backups but do you always remember?

I am not advocating remaining in the Stone Age and yes we need to move forward but we do not need to do it all in one year! I do want Seedy to continue supporting slalom and running races even if, for what I think are currently fair reasons, he wants to use cards!

bankside · Post by **bankside** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:30 am

but in XL you can set the Autosave Recover option from 1 to 99 minutes so that the latest version of your work is saved in a dedicated folder. Its works too as I tested it the other week with the help of Scottish & Southern.

alldaypaddler · Post by **alldaypaddler** » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:49 pm

Totally agree the should be an online payment system - there's got to e a way to work this out. Does it necessarily have to be Paypal?

And in answer to an earlier question,

most of the paddlers I know don't paddle slalom because they see it as exclusive, middle-class and snobby.
However I think that is a largely misguided view... where did it come from?