Right,
As promised while I’m having a quieter day a work it’s time to get something off my chest that has been bugging me for a couple of years on and off.
Why is slalom living in the dark ages??
The 3 main issues I have are as follows;
1. Why are we still using a timing system which was old when I started canoeing in 1990? Granted it’s easy to set up, but the system on the whole is unreliable, with almost weekly problems with reliability. Currently I am only 1 of 2 people in our club who have the slightest idea how to run TUTTI, which means if we can’t attend an event it simply can’t run.
2. Why are we still using a postal entry system and payment method (cheques) which banks are trying to abolish in the near future?
3. The need for ranking compilers to check through results to find rouge entries (as apparently happened at abbey last week!)
Now I’m not just going to moan about stuff I have also tried to think of solutions to my own questions and how they could practically work. This was what I came up with (and I must add I do not have the technical skills required to do most (if not all) of it but would help where needed and skills allowed!)
Create an online data base which holds every ranked paddlers details with regard to ranking, age group, club, address, BCU number, email address, and assumed risk tick box. Bib application would incorporate registering onto the database.
Create an online entry system with an online payment method incorporating a late entry cut off point so no one can argue that they put it in the post on time or it got lost in the mail! Entries would be cut off say at 12 noon on the Friday before a race and only div 4 entries accepted on the day. Therefore only ranked paddlers who had applied for their bib could enter races.
Create a wireless start/finish and judging system to be incorporated into a computer programme to run an event and produce results sheets as well as duelling as a scoreboard? With modern gear can it be so hard to create a wireless start and finish system which sends information to a laptop and the same for a scoring system for judges to use? I'm pretty sure I could persuade my uncle to set it as a dissertation topic for one unlucky computing student!
Event organisers can then upload created results onto the previously mentioned database which can then compile ranking lists and verify promotions instantly. This could then be linked / incorporated to the current slalom website to be the results /ranking service for UK canoe slalom. (This would remove the need for organisers to spend the next few weeks chopping down half of their local forest in order to meet the paper mills demand when it comes to sending the required amount of result sheets to post race people. )
Generally I simply think we should try to bring the organisation of the sport up to date and try to embrace newer technologies in order to make the running of our sport at events easier and more reliable, whilst centralising results, rankings and entries to a modern standardised system which is fool proof and takes some of the staggering amount of paperwork away from organisers.
I’ll now stand back and ready myself for the bombardment i’m sure to receive along the lines of “if its not broke...” and “thats just the way we do it”.
I just feel that if we don’t get ahead of the game in terms of entries and centralisation to remove errors like last weekend they will keep happening and ultimately it hurts the sport.
Time for a change??
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kendall chew
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:21 pm
- Location: Cheshire
Well,
As a good starting point, the online entry system for the Nene, last weekend, was brilliant I paid using Paypal. Perhaps that is what we need. No doubt someone could play with that system ( the inventor himself) and upgrade it to your suggested specification. By the way, the Nene was a really good event, thank you.
As a good starting point, the online entry system for the Nene, last weekend, was brilliant I paid using Paypal. Perhaps that is what we need. No doubt someone could play with that system ( the inventor himself) and upgrade it to your suggested specification. By the way, the Nene was a really good event, thank you.
1 - TUTTI, yes it is old and outdated but it works and is almost fool proof and anyone can very easily learn to use it - it is pretty bomb proof too, just to clarify the comment re weekly problems, Andy maintains it and yes we have had a problem in the last few weeks with one on the sets, the others are running to my knowledge without problems so that statement is unfounded. Wireless is not even used by those professionally timing slalom because it is unsuitable but if you can get something designed then please feel free to do so however there is then the question of paying for it....!
2. On line entries - yes this needs to happen! Need to start with Div 1 & prem first but it will save hours of organisers time completing half filled in cards! Also can only enter if paid! I would love a working party to get together and move this forward - one issue is that paypal takes 5% can the clubs afford that, the slalom committee at present cannot! Interestingly in a posting from the Nene organiser this is covered by people having to pay rather than sending an entry without money so more entries. So come one folks this is your opportunity to help your sport, get together and help, there is no one one at present on the committee with the time to take this on!
3. On line data base - would need to look at data protection and child protection very carefully before anything like this can go forward.
2. On line entries - yes this needs to happen! Need to start with Div 1 & prem first but it will save hours of organisers time completing half filled in cards! Also can only enter if paid! I would love a working party to get together and move this forward - one issue is that paypal takes 5% can the clubs afford that, the slalom committee at present cannot! Interestingly in a posting from the Nene organiser this is covered by people having to pay rather than sending an entry without money so more entries. So come one folks this is your opportunity to help your sport, get together and help, there is no one one at present on the committee with the time to take this on!
3. On line data base - would need to look at data protection and child protection very carefully before anything like this can go forward.
Perhaps the 2012 season could see a number of changes to encourage participation. I would argue that allowing electronic entries for div4 should be the first to be introduced to get more people involved as soon as possible.
Does anyone have any ideas for making returning old bibs/ receiving new ones during and at the end of the season easier and cheaper ?
There may be certain events where someone already involved with bibs, might take a paddlers old bib off them at an awards ceremony.
On occasion it might be possible for newly promoted paddlers to pick up their new bibs at an event - this possibility could be added to info about a particular competition.
At someone's last race of a season, a paddler could hand in their bib to an organiser. Each paddler could pay the organiser £1 towards the cost of bulk postage if necessary.
The first race of the season could be a time to hand out bibs.
Does anyone have any ideas for making returning old bibs/ receiving new ones during and at the end of the season easier and cheaper ?
There may be certain events where someone already involved with bibs, might take a paddlers old bib off them at an awards ceremony.
On occasion it might be possible for newly promoted paddlers to pick up their new bibs at an event - this possibility could be added to info about a particular competition.
At someone's last race of a season, a paddler could hand in their bib to an organiser. Each paddler could pay the organiser £1 towards the cost of bulk postage if necessary.
The first race of the season could be a time to hand out bibs.
I asked one of the K1 racers in our club today whether he thought any of our youngsters would be interested in trying out slalom. The answer was - we've tried slalom (as a club) already, there are some slalom boats in the shed (old 4m ones) if you want to buy any. When I meet playboaters they don't realize the new short boats turn so well, that the lower division events have plenty of free practice morning and evening (usually), and don't realize they could demo a slalom boat at some competitions.
It would be useful to list the myths/ reasons why most paddlers don't do slalom, and provide as much info to debunk/ wash away the reasons on this site. Easier said than done. Personally I find the 'how to' bit on this site inspiring and very informative but maybe I know too much about slalom already.
The UK map on this site listing courses is great, but could include even very basic slalom resources present all year. I can volunteer Hereford's slalom training feature - a single plastic pole on the upstream side of the Old Bridge in the centre of Hereford, hidden under some overhanging trees. It can easily be adjusted from the water. To my knowledge the next closest slalom pole is at Cardiff white water centre 1hr 20min drive away, although I've heard rumour of some poles in Cheltenham, somewhere...
It would be useful to list the myths/ reasons why most paddlers don't do slalom, and provide as much info to debunk/ wash away the reasons on this site. Easier said than done. Personally I find the 'how to' bit on this site inspiring and very informative but maybe I know too much about slalom already.
The UK map on this site listing courses is great, but could include even very basic slalom resources present all year. I can volunteer Hereford's slalom training feature - a single plastic pole on the upstream side of the Old Bridge in the centre of Hereford, hidden under some overhanging trees. It can easily be adjusted from the water. To my knowledge the next closest slalom pole is at Cardiff white water centre 1hr 20min drive away, although I've heard rumour of some poles in Cheltenham, somewhere...
Picture this (twilight zone music in background)...January 2012 (oh help isn't the earth's crust about to melt - what's the melting temp of carbon?) - 300 paddlers all pay in advance online for on average 5 slaloms (entering personal details only once, or not at all for those with a ppppaaasssword) + 200 paddlers tick a box to pay £1 to collect their bib at the first race of the season (nice earner for the first organiser of the yr). Credit is held to pay for future entries if a competition is cancelled making refunds unnecessary, emails are automatically sent to all who have entered on online updating paddlers with last minute news, organizers have money months in advance...
Good ideas but the cost may be more than anticipated and logistically more difficult than expected..
1. If we scrap postal entries and devise an online system we then i suppose expect cards to be filled in on the day, brought already filled in on the day or have a programme for the organiser to print them from with the details in as the racer applied online??
Wont this either make organisation on the day a nightmare or cost the organiser a bomb in printing?
2. With regard to bib posting/collecting etc. I know Tracey Wells was at the serpents tail div 1 at the end of last season and took alot of the ladies div1 bibs. I feel the slalom community (certainly further up the divisions) is quite close knit with most people knowing/seeing each other at most events and there always seems to be someone from every club at a race. Instead of having the bib person being an individual why not leave it in charge of an individual but the responsibility of a club for example. Lynne Farrow is in charge of ladies div 1 bibs- so at each event there is bound to be someone from that club that can bring bibs incase of promotion if Lynne cant and someone from the club responsible for div 2 bibs to take the old- this could be published on the race info sheet.
eg, If promoted please return bib to.....
and collect bib from.....
These could be left at race control by the relevant people to avoid the need to find/know people.
3.If something could be be altered with regard to rankings being updated- as i understand its a long and time consuming job at present, that would be good, maybe via a linked system with results (I have no bright ideas). But for example if online entry prevented people without bibs entering/entering the wrong division or entering too late, then thats good.
This would avoid problems such as recently raised issues surrounding C2 combinations and the division in which they should race, for example if theres a div1 paddler in the pairing can they enter div 4 etc etc.
Also people that are promoted without knowing entering the wrong class at a later race, therefore altering others points and causing further problems. Eg, at bala mill the points were displayed wrong on the results for my C1 div 2 result meaning i left thinking i had missed promotion, however 3 weeks later when the rankings were updated my points had been corrected and i was consequently promoted, however in that time i could have raced at llandysll and would have entered as a div 2.
Finally its something really really simple and useless to most but think it would be helpful especially in the lower divisions. If on the rankings there could be a note at the top of the ranking list saying how many points for promotion- i know all this is in the yearbook but there are people in our club for sure in div 3 that don't have a yearbook and i am constantly asked how many points etc.
Alternatively another column after point total saying how many points are needed to gain promotion, so people going to a slalom know exactly how many they need and dont then ask race organiser who cant get on the internet etc.
1. If we scrap postal entries and devise an online system we then i suppose expect cards to be filled in on the day, brought already filled in on the day or have a programme for the organiser to print them from with the details in as the racer applied online??
Wont this either make organisation on the day a nightmare or cost the organiser a bomb in printing?
2. With regard to bib posting/collecting etc. I know Tracey Wells was at the serpents tail div 1 at the end of last season and took alot of the ladies div1 bibs. I feel the slalom community (certainly further up the divisions) is quite close knit with most people knowing/seeing each other at most events and there always seems to be someone from every club at a race. Instead of having the bib person being an individual why not leave it in charge of an individual but the responsibility of a club for example. Lynne Farrow is in charge of ladies div 1 bibs- so at each event there is bound to be someone from that club that can bring bibs incase of promotion if Lynne cant and someone from the club responsible for div 2 bibs to take the old- this could be published on the race info sheet.
eg, If promoted please return bib to.....
and collect bib from.....
These could be left at race control by the relevant people to avoid the need to find/know people.
3.If something could be be altered with regard to rankings being updated- as i understand its a long and time consuming job at present, that would be good, maybe via a linked system with results (I have no bright ideas). But for example if online entry prevented people without bibs entering/entering the wrong division or entering too late, then thats good.
This would avoid problems such as recently raised issues surrounding C2 combinations and the division in which they should race, for example if theres a div1 paddler in the pairing can they enter div 4 etc etc.
Also people that are promoted without knowing entering the wrong class at a later race, therefore altering others points and causing further problems. Eg, at bala mill the points were displayed wrong on the results for my C1 div 2 result meaning i left thinking i had missed promotion, however 3 weeks later when the rankings were updated my points had been corrected and i was consequently promoted, however in that time i could have raced at llandysll and would have entered as a div 2.
Finally its something really really simple and useless to most but think it would be helpful especially in the lower divisions. If on the rankings there could be a note at the top of the ranking list saying how many points for promotion- i know all this is in the yearbook but there are people in our club for sure in div 3 that don't have a yearbook and i am constantly asked how many points etc.
Alternatively another column after point total saying how many points are needed to gain promotion, so people going to a slalom know exactly how many they need and dont then ask race organiser who cant get on the internet etc.
There is always a great opportuntiy to improve existing systems.
I'm up for it.
Who will work with me to support the Committe and particularly PeterC by establising a draft requirement for a data management system that is appropriate for all divisions and locations of competitions and will support ranking.
I'm up for it.
Who will work with me to support the Committe and particularly PeterC by establising a draft requirement for a data management system that is appropriate for all divisions and locations of competitions and will support ranking.
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John Sturgess
- Posts: 280
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 12:01 am
- Location: Gedling, Nottingham/Long Preston, North Yorkshire
I am currently working on drafts to address at least some of these problems, and will be discussing them with Peter Curry at Grandtully over next week.
Aim (i) to make Slaloms easier to run (ii) to get over the problem that keeps cropping up (see Katonas on another thread) of paddlers not knowing when they are promoted.
Two proposals at the moment:
1) Getting rid of cards - the follow on from this will solve quite a few of these problems
2) Making results published on the day official - and therefore Nick's web rankings also official - subject to appeal which can only affect the appellant's score, nobody else's. To avoid extra work for organisers, this to be the responsibility of the Jury Chairman, who would turn up in the morning able to tell the organiser what division each paddler should be in; and check that the results of the event are valid.
I have piloted this at three events this year - including being able to tell paddlers on the Saturday evening what they should be racing on the Sunday.
Difficult to do justice to this without writing another over-length JS post. However I am happy to e-mail drafts on that and other topics, as long as you promise to send back comments. e-mail me on ECSTCoach@jsturgess.freeserve.co.uk or john.sturgess@gedling.gov.uk
Aim (i) to make Slaloms easier to run (ii) to get over the problem that keeps cropping up (see Katonas on another thread) of paddlers not knowing when they are promoted.
Two proposals at the moment:
1) Getting rid of cards - the follow on from this will solve quite a few of these problems
2) Making results published on the day official - and therefore Nick's web rankings also official - subject to appeal which can only affect the appellant's score, nobody else's. To avoid extra work for organisers, this to be the responsibility of the Jury Chairman, who would turn up in the morning able to tell the organiser what division each paddler should be in; and check that the results of the event are valid.
I have piloted this at three events this year - including being able to tell paddlers on the Saturday evening what they should be racing on the Sunday.
Difficult to do justice to this without writing another over-length JS post. However I am happy to e-mail drafts on that and other topics, as long as you promise to send back comments. e-mail me on ECSTCoach@jsturgess.freeserve.co.uk or john.sturgess@gedling.gov.uk
Hello, my two pennies on the topic.
This is something I have thought about for the last year or so at slaloms, but can see why it is something that up until now has been left to the side a little How the sport and its entries run, creates a whole new process should an online automated system be considered in order to make it more efficient than the current system.
As this is what I do as a job (payment/database management/web applications) I would be happy to give some time to the proposed project, both in technical help and in any other way. I think it's a good idea, but is something that needs to be gradually faded in.
A couple of points to consider regarding payments; Paypal (and other online payment merchants such as Google Checkout) charge around 3.4% + £0.20 GBP on any transaction under £1500.00. Therefore I am not sure whether this would need to be considered. This is roughly £0.90 for division 2 double, £1.20 for division 1/prem. I know it's not much, but if event funds are tight on an event it is worth considering.... It would also mean that each slalom event organiser would be required to setup their own merchant account (not a big job, but requires a few validation steps initially) - unless it was sent to a central account and transferred from their (administration time).
Perhaps the payment side would then be able to link to a "central point" where, depending on the event, the payment would be directed to the merchant account.
Assuming a merchant account is used (Paypal etc), this should mean issues such as PCI compliance (Payment Card Industry) are dealt with. There is the point of how the details would be stored, and their security - as the database would be holding address details, date of births etc. It is possible that details stored on the system would only contain bib numbers, and names and when entering for an event personal details are sent to the organiser, but not stored online.
I agree that this is a way the sport should be going, but is something not to be rushed.
Matt
This is something I have thought about for the last year or so at slaloms, but can see why it is something that up until now has been left to the side a little How the sport and its entries run, creates a whole new process should an online automated system be considered in order to make it more efficient than the current system.
bankside wrote:Who will work with me to support the Committe and particularly PeterC by establising a draft requirement for a data management system that is appropriate for all divisions and locations of competitions and will support ranking.
As this is what I do as a job (payment/database management/web applications) I would be happy to give some time to the proposed project, both in technical help and in any other way. I think it's a good idea, but is something that needs to be gradually faded in.
A couple of points to consider regarding payments; Paypal (and other online payment merchants such as Google Checkout) charge around 3.4% + £0.20 GBP on any transaction under £1500.00. Therefore I am not sure whether this would need to be considered. This is roughly £0.90 for division 2 double, £1.20 for division 1/prem. I know it's not much, but if event funds are tight on an event it is worth considering.... It would also mean that each slalom event organiser would be required to setup their own merchant account (not a big job, but requires a few validation steps initially) - unless it was sent to a central account and transferred from their (administration time).
Perhaps the payment side would then be able to link to a "central point" where, depending on the event, the payment would be directed to the merchant account.
Assuming a merchant account is used (Paypal etc), this should mean issues such as PCI compliance (Payment Card Industry) are dealt with. There is the point of how the details would be stored, and their security - as the database would be holding address details, date of births etc. It is possible that details stored on the system would only contain bib numbers, and names and when entering for an event personal details are sent to the organiser, but not stored online.
I agree that this is a way the sport should be going, but is something not to be rushed.
Matt