Nationality

[Neil H]

Does anybody know what governs whether you can represent another nation other that that which you reside in?

[whiteyak]

it's something to do with your heritage. If you have family from another country, and they are full citizens (or it may be that they are -let's say - fully Irish, i.e. both irish parents) I believe that you can back through two generations to find different blood! Not sure this is 100% accurate, but some of it might be true!

[Seedy Paddler]

Under ICF Rules you represent the Federation Member and it is up to them to decide what they will recognise it may be by Birth, residency or through parentage (1st 2nd or 3rd Generation) or through marriage :

3.1 Only the members of clubs or associations affiliated with an ICF National Federation have the right to participate in an international competition.
3.2 A competitor having satisfied 3.1 and also having first obtained the (written) consent of the competitors National Federation, is permitted to compete individually in an International Competition.
3.3.1 A competitor may compete on behalf of the National Federation in a foreign country in which he/she is domiciled, if the competitor obtains the authorisation of their Federation of origin. This authorisation has to be sent before 30th November prior to the year concerned to the ICF Headquarters with a copy to the CSL Technical Committee Chair. The same procedure applies, should the competitor revert to their original National Federation.
3.3.2 If he/she has lived for 2 years or more in a foreign country, the approval of his/her Federation of origin is no longer required.
ICF Canoe Slalom Competition Rules
8
3.3.3 A competitor may not compete for more than one Federation in any one calendar year in the sport of Canoeing. This rule does not apply in the case of a competitor who leaves their country of origin to marry and live in another country. He/she can, in this case, compete for their new Federation without awaiting the delay of 2 years.
3.4 The first year a competitor can compete in an ICF or International competition is the year in that their 15th birthday falls in. The last year they can compete in a Junior category is the year that their 18th birthday falls in. The last year he/she can compete in Under 23 category is the year that their 23rd birthday falls in.
3.5 Master(s) competitors can compete in a Masters event in the year that he/she reaches the lower limit of the age categories, i.e. in the 35-39 age group they are eligible to compete the year of their 35th birthday. In events that have two competitors in the boat, the age of the younger competitor will control the category in which the pair can compete. Age group categories will commence from age 35-39 and increase upwards in 5 year age intervals.
3.6 Each National Federation shall ensure that their competitors are in a good state of health and fitness which allows them to compete at a level commensurate with the competition level of the particular event. Each Federation must also ensure that their competitors, team officials, as well as the Federation itself, carries appropriate health, accident and property insurance covering their persons, equipment and property.

Within the UK Criteria are set by the Home Nations.

[Neil H]

So could each federation member decide differently?

[bankside]

Emigrating?

[Neil H]

I hear the Afghans have a good slalom programme

No, just wondering if their is an equitable process for a young person competing for another nation or it is all made up as it goes along depending on which nation it is

[Canadian Paddler]

Just checking are we talking Nation as in ICF "National Federation", BCU in Great Britain, DVK in Germany, USACK in the USA - in which case Seedy has given a full answer

OR

Are we talking Federation as in England, Scotland, Wales ......
In which case you would have to look at the Pan Celtic Rule, and / or the rules of the Home Nation Slalom Committee/Team? Which may well be more along the lines of "If you are a member of the Association you are eligible", but I am not an expert in this area.

[BaldockBabe]

The home nation rules need looking at by the BCU. From my understanding you have to be a member of your home nation i.e. SCA, Canoe England to compete for that nation. That means that you cannot compete for your nation of birth if you now reside in another nation - madness!!!

[Neil H]

interesting that BaldockBabe

I think I was coming at it from a home nations perspective and in the spirit of equity and purely hypothetically

If person A lives in England and is allowed to compete for say Ireland because of their grandparents but person B lives in England is not allowed to compete for another home nation say Wales - when they have Welsh grandparents

Skipping back a bit

"Under ICF Rules you represent the Federation Member and it is up to them to decide what they will recognise it may be by Birth, residency or through parentage (1st 2nd or 3rd Generation) or through marriage"

Are we concluding that each member can decide differently?

[Canadian Paddler]

in this context federation member is BCU, USACK as above.
To compete internationally you have to be proposed by the federation, you cannot just enter. hence the registration.
so regardless of residency, marriage or birth if the federation do not propose you, you do not paddle. each federation is free to make its own decision.
eg USACK did not propose Lefevre as C1 at Deep Creek so he was not paddling the international
but must abide by their rules, not vary by person. examples can be given, but not here.

Home Nations is under different rules, as England, Wales, Scotland and CANI are not ICF member federations, but come under BCU, so follow BCU rules.
I do not remember seeing them written down.
Still should follow one rule per association, not vary by individual.

[BaldockBabe]

inte

If person A lives in England and is allowed to compete for say Ireland because of their grandparents but person B lives in England is not allowed to compete for another home nation say Wales - when they have Welsh grandparents


Are we concluding that each member can decide differently?

If Wales/ Ireland are the same as Scotland then the person residing in England would have the same problem that I do i.e I have to be a member of the SCA to compete for Scotland but under BCU rules you are supposed to be a member of the Home Nation that you reside in. So to compete for my country of birth I have to use my family address to be an SCA member - but in theory I could compete for England on residency/ parentage basis just because I can use my own address to be a Canoe England member - go figure

We won't even go there with what would happen if Scotland got independance

[Neil H]

each federation is free to make its own decision.
eg USACK did not propose Lefevre as C1 at Deep Creek so he was not paddling the international
but must abide by their rules, not vary by person. examples can be given, but not here.

Home Nations is under different rules, as England, Wales, Scotland and CANI are not ICF member federations, but come under BCU, so follow BCU rules.
I do not remember seeing them written down.
Still should follow one rule per association, not vary by individual.

This has turned out to be quite interesting. Thanks for the input.

So I read that there should be some equity here. I would be quite interested in seeing it written down, it clearly must be somewhere, particularly as the Babe of Baldock stated earlier that there seems to be a issue that you cannot paddle in your nation of birth if resident elsewhere - if that has been interpreted correctly as BB understands it. So where can the rules be found.....anyone?

[bankside]

We won't even go there with what would happen if Scotland got independance

That's OK - Ecosse is on the way to being a department of France already

[BaldockBabe]

Not sure about the other nations but I was told that I could not compete for Scotland if I was not a member of the SCA. The SCA clearly states on their website that they are only open to "a person residing in Scotland" - http://www.canoescotland.org/Membership.aspx

Even the BCU itself says that you have to apply to the Home Nation "in which you reside" - http://www.bcu.org.uk/about/membership/

This is backed up by Canoe Wales (http://www.canoewales.com/membership.aspx) who will only allow supporters membership for those not resident in Wales.

Thus, if even if the intention of the Scots rule was not to discriminate against Scot's living elsewhere, the BCU/ SCA residency rule does do this. I suspect that the Irish competitors living in England are members of CANI by way of family addresses in the same way as Scot's paddlers living in England have also had to do the same thing.

However, there are other issues that you need to consider. As an adult they don't affect me as I don't think any of the Home Nations really give a monkey's about competing adults, but a child who may benefit from coaching opportunities it is much easier to benefit from support from the Home Nation in which you reside rather than the Home Nation for which you compete.

[BaldockBabe]

We won't even go there with what would happen if Scotland got independance

That's OK - Ecosse is on the way to being a department of France already

Oh... They may want to re-consider that. The inheritance rules in France would be detrimental to those Scots with their large castles and even larger estates