Officials' Ranking the problem

[Canadian Paddler]

Mrs CP has hijacked CP’s account to put on her own posting.

As you may be aware I am the complier for the Officials rankings, and find the rules for this to be a nightmare! So I am trying to revise them to make it simpler, these would (of course) need approval by the ACM and slalom committee.

Background
There seems to be a general lack of interest in this competition, indeed many are unaware that there is a competition let alone a trophy for the overall winner. In this day and age is the Officials competition relevant? Do we wish to continue? If we do we need to publicise it better. Many events seem to complain of the difficulty of getting people to judge and I assume this was set up to encourage judging. In which case we need to make it more relevant for this purpose. Should we award a trophy for the Prem /Div 1, Div2/3 and Div 4 winners as well as the overall? Currently there are 329 names on the list, half of which have only done one event, usually their home club event. So far Nick publishes the entire list and I propose next year to only send him the top 50 names, unless anyone vigorously objects.

Proposal 0 Rule B6.4 states that each competitor completes an entry card. But last year the rules changed so that cards do not need to be sent. This needs to be removed from the rules.

WHEN organisers send me the results (and that doesn’t happen often, most of the time either Nick sends them to me or I have to wait for them to be published on the web) the ranking of the competitor is not included. I spend a great deal of time trying to track down peoples ranking. If they have not competed for several years they will have no ranking and I have to make a best guess as to where they should be.

Proposal 1: In future organisers are to put the competitors last ranking division on the results sheets, and we will ask Ken to modify Simply Slalom to show the information.

Many names I recognise but there are a few who seem to crawl out of the woodwork only for Officials events. Indeed a few paddlers this year have told me that they intend to paddle only in Officials next year and not do a ranking event. As this is a way of keeping people in the sport and judging, the event then becomes relevant however, one has to ask why they are dropping out of ranking events. But that’s a discussion for another day…………….

Proposal 2: Rule B6.6 refers to non-paddling judges. Organisers NEVER tell me if they have non-paddling judges and the award of 25 points for each event they judge at is ridiculous. If a non-paddling judge did only 6 events they would only be around number 65 on the current ranking list. In order to be at the top they would have to do 25 events!

Therefore, in an attempt to value volunteers do we
A) scrap this rule
B) increase the number of points awarded for each event done to give them a better chance of getting near the top
C) have a separate competition for Non-paddling judges?
If we decide to continue then Organisers MUST inform me of all NON-paddling judges otherwise it won’t work. The easiest way is for a form to be completed that could be e mailed to me with the results. Another addition to the Organisers pack.

Proposal 3: Why not have a club trophy? Awarded to the club who has the most members judging throughout the year. As there are currently 64 clubs on the list we can work out the winners in one of several ways.

A) We take the first 10 clubs on the list only and then add up the number of events their members have judged at, the winning club being the one with the most events
B) We take the first 10 clubs and add up all the points their members have gained, the winning club being the one with the most points
C) We count ALL the clubs and then either A or B
D) Add the points from the top three paddlers for the club, the club with the highest score wins. (or some other number of paddlers)
E) Open to other suggestions.

Obviously we would need to find a trophy for this but to get it off the ground and encourage clubs to get its members to judge I think we would need to find some sort of sponsorship at least for the first few years to make it attractive to the clubs.

Proposal for C2’s. Here’s where CP and I disagree. On one of the Officials events the paddlers paddled in their class and then all joined up and paddled C2’s. In this case they would all have got 2 sets of points. Is this what we want? Therefore, how do we award points to C2’s? We need to form a proposal to put to the ACM to sort out this mess. There are no rules about how points are allocated when a C2 paddles an Officials event. I have therefore awarded one set of points for 'the crew' depending on where they finished.

CP believes that each member of a ranked crew should have the points awarded to them, but that if they do a single and C2 at one event (or K1 and C1, or two C2 pairs) you get the highest points but not double points

As I said I am open to suggestions on all of these proposals and hope that this post will encourage some scratching of the little grey cells and some ideas on how we can improve the current situation. Here's hoping for some comment / suggestion and not just deafening silence.

Mrs CP

[Ken Trollope]

FYI
There is already provision to enter officials data in Simply Slalom.
Extract from Handbook.
The Cls column can be used for other info i.e. Class and Division and ranking bib
number if known of officials
e.g. K1M1298 ( K1MDiv1Bib298 ), C2 3 (C2 Div3).note space after C2.
When you calculate Points you get a pop up message saying "Sorry, Points for Officials under development"
This is a bit of a lie, I gave up trying to write the software especially in the light of lack of competitors information.

If the Points system can be simplified and Officials ensure that the organiser has entered the correct code (TBD) in the cls column otherwise they will be left out of any points calculation then I will revisit the software.

Ken
Simply Slalom

[Canadian Paddler]

Ken,

Actually working out the points is not a problem. The problem is not knowing which division the paddlers are in, if any. The column you refers to needs to be bigger as WHEN I do get e mailed the results I cant read what they have put there. If you could adjust it, that would be great.
The problem with Simply Slalom working out the points is that often paddlers don't have a ranking as they haven't competed in a while. I therefore have to give them one. Unless organisers are willing to do this BEFORE they calculate points, it isn't worth you trying to write a programme for it.

Mrs CP

[djberriman]

You just need the CSV or all results page from SS which will work in excel and then columns are no issue.

You could ask Nick to add you to his resutls email address which means you get auto copied in on results.

[Canadian Paddler]

Thanks will do. But this is a minor problem compared to the rest of the original posting.

Mrs CP

[djberriman]

Here is my humble opinion. Firstly thanks for doing the task you do I (now) know how difficult producing rankings are

Personally I can't see any point in officials points, and it has never crossed my mind as a reason to be an official. If it was up to me I'd scrap it totally and put you out of a job.

It would also be good if we could clarify the words, 'officals entry' and 'judges entry' as there are lots of jobs to do apart from Judging and many of take a lot longer than the time that might be spent judging and are still rewarded with an 'officials entry'.

"Proposal 0 Rule B6.4 states that each competitor completes an entry card. But last year the rules changed so that cards do not need to be sent. This needs to be removed from the rules."

Needs sorting if it continues, just remove the word card but really we know what it means, too much letter of the law already in our sport if you ask me.

"Proposal 1: In future organisers are to put the competitors last ranking division on the results sheets, and we will ask Ken to modify Simply Slalom to show the information."

As mentioned SS does it IF the entry person put the details in IF the paddler puts it on the entry so other systems just need to follow suit (or just use SS).

"Proposal 2: Rule B6.6 refers to non-paddling judges. Organisers NEVER tell me if they have non-paddling judges and the award of 25 points for each event they judge at is ridiculous. If a non-paddling judge did only 6 events they would only be around number 65 on the current ranking list. In order to be at the top they would have to do 25 events!"

Scrap this rule totally pointless.

Paddling officials get there value from a 'free' entry I can't see the officials ranking is of any relevance and really it's just a terrible waste of a volunteers time.

Proposal 3: Why not have a club trophy? Awarded to the club who has the most members judging throughout the year. As there are currently 64 clubs on the list we can work out the winners in one of several ways.

Just judging? how about the umpteen house getting stuff ready, building courses (more complex at sites like Howsham and Washburn), setting up PA, tutty, tents, spending all day in a hot kitchen doing catering etc etc. Personally I think this is a non starter and I really can't see it encouraging anyone to judge.

If the rules stay then C2's should be ranked as a pair as they are everywhere else.

As I say IMHO and no offence to anyone intended x

[BaldockBabe]

As this is a way of keeping people in the sport and judging, the event then becomes relevant however, one has to ask why they are dropping out of ranking events. But that’s a discussion for another day…………….

For me the answer to this is simples... No structure in place for adults to get coaching, no time at events to prepare properly because I am always helping with timing/ judging, no chance of improving because of lack of coaching = a very expensive weekend away with nothing to show for it.

Anyway, back to the original questions:

Ditch the non-paddling points scheme. Non-paddling volunteers should be valued as much as paddling volunteers but unless a fair points scheme can be produced it is not worth it. They can't win (though I know some of you would score highly!) without attending more evnets than a paddler would need to win, if you up the points how do you decide what points to give. Does someone who is there working all day "deserve" more points than someone who helps for an hour... It is just too complicated!

C2's - Firtly I thogut that if you paddled in your class you could not also have an officials entry? Anyway, as per the leagues it should be points per boat rather than points per individual.

Query - how does it work if an individual does their officials entry in different boats i.e. a K1 and a C1? Are the points combined? If so, I am not sure how you could split trophy's by division?

Proposal 3 - nice idea in theory but not sure it would encourage more volunteers and would favour clubs that ran a number of their own events (which in itself may not be a bad thing)...

[Canadian Paddler]

This is me not 'the boss'

C2s,
This is not about those who do C2 and somehow get an officials run as well, but those that judge and just do a C2 officials run. (BTW just 1 crew this year)

So if I do 5 officials runs in C1, and 5 in C2, and 5 in K1, only 10 sets of points count for 'me', and 5 for 'the crew'. The winner has 'just' done eleven events. I do not win merely because I used a 'proper boat' for 1/3 of my runs?

I believe that if you officiate, you should be eligible for points from your run. If there are two of you, you have probably both been officiating so both get points.

BUT if two of you officiate, and one does a C1 run, then you both do C2 run, only one set of points counts per person.

C1 and K1
Mrs CP is lucky if she gets to know the division, let alone the class you paddled, definitely does not know if you do 1 C1 and 1 k1 run. So points are awareded as though both were K1 runs, and only 1 set of points.

[Dee]

My pennyworthless....

I was under the impression that the officials rankings had ceased to be for a while and have only recently been revived. If I'm right then publicity may be neccessary so that people are aware of the competition.

Proposal 1 - I really sympathise with the lack of information regarding rank/class etc; the problem is that I don't think this is the organisers deliberately with-holding information. From my side I really struggle to get officials and when I do the majority just don't complete their cards. It is not uncommon to find an official on the starting line with no card, so at best the card is approximately completed by the timer in control (not just referring to events I've organised but also those I've helped at over the last few years). So requiring organiser to put the non-existant info on the results sheets is just adding to the stress on the day. And errm what about those that do their first run in a kayak and the second in a c1 without telling the organiser (remember they could be in different divisions in each)

Proposal 2 - OK I confess, I must have dozed off when reading this section of the year book, but is there really any point.

Proposal 3 - I'm wary of this, though I can't quite put my finger on why it could have a negative effect maybe on those from clubs with fewer members, I don't know.

C2s - I don't think it should be possible for one person to get two sets of points at the same event, but if a C2 competes both individuals should get points.
BTW how on earth do you work out points where there are two courses (eg one for div 2 and one for div 3) as you have no way of knowing which paddler did which course!


An Alternative -
Assuming this competition is about encouraging people to officiate at events (I'm including here anyone who judges, times, start/finish, judges/computer clerk, canteen, organises etc) then any prizes should reflect that and paddling ability should not be considered.

So why not ditch the existing officials ranking and just have a straight forward - number of events each person helps at. Organiser required to maintain list and display list before the end of event, helpers required to confirm that they are on the list and that the name used is consistent from event to event. List published as an addition to the results. Give the "prize" to the most frequent helper. Note that the list can (and should) include ranking paddlers who also help with judging. I'd go as far as to suggest we have two awards, one being for the most frequent attendee from the section judge/timing teams and one for the most frequent helper from everyone else.

[Canadian Paddler]

Mrs C P here. Hijacked Canadian Paddlers account again.

A few things I need to make clear just to clarify.

Rule C6.1.2 states that a competitor may not at one event enter both a ranking event or a Championship event and an Officials event in the same or different category. I have already had to discard one Officials points after I discovered he had also paddled the ranking event. The organiser said he did not know this rule.

As I do not know whether a competitor has paddled a C1 or a K1, when looking up their ranking I will use their highest ranked division. All their points will then be added to this division.

This year so far, we have had 12 C2's on the list. All of which have only done ONE run. Only one C2 is a ranked C2, the rest seem to have been 'made up' for the day. As far as the ranked C2 goes, one member has paddled several official events in a K1 and had I awarded points to him on his individual points for paddling the C2, he would have jumped up 20 places on the list. Personally, if I was beaten to first place by someone who had paddled just one event in a C2 I would be pretty upset. It may never happen but then again. This is where Canadian Paddler and I disagree. If C2's were to do more events I would not have a problem with it. However, we do need to add that if someone paddles C2 AND a K1 or C1 in the same officials event, they can only be awarded one set of points. Recently I had a set of results where 5 people paddled K1 or C1 and then joined up to paddle C2 in various mixes and it would have resulted in one individual gettingt 3 sets of points if we were to award individual points.

Dee, Officials rankings has not ceased. In fact for the last 4 years the winners have been printed in the year book with the other trophy winners. If you thought it had ceased then maybe it is a case of publicity but we still need to sort out the rules for awarding points. Currently I am 'winging' it.

When working out the points I look at the Official results that the organisers (or Nick has published) have done. I cannot distinguish between who has paddled which course and I wouldn't want to. I want to simplify not complicate the rankings.

The alternative you suggest I think would be even more complicated that the system we have. To include EVERYONE who helps at an event, whether it be days or hours helped would mean an extremely long list. Many will only help out at their own club event and I would again end up with a long list of people on one event only! I would need to ensure that the name and club they use throughout the year does not change. I have enough problems with paddlers not putting their full names or using nick names on their entries and sometimes, changing clubs, it can take me a while to find a ranking for them. This idea would no doubt end up in a tie for first place and how would you decide who is the winner?
As far as the Judging and Timing teams go this to me is a non starter. Judges and Timing crew tell Jackie and Andy which events they can go to and Jackie and Andy then draw up a roster of who is needed where in an effort to keep costs down. That does not preclude them from going and volunteering for another job anyway, but they will not be needed for judging and timing.

Surely, volunteers who put the most into the sport can be recognised with the Ed Ecclestone award?

Mrs CP

[Dee]

Rule C6.1.2 states that a competitor may not at one event enter both a ranking event or a Championship event and an Officials event in the same or different category. I have already had to discard one Officials points after I discovered he had also paddled the ranking event. The organiser said he did not know this rule.

This rule is clearly not widely known as I've had a number of people complain at me when I've adhered to it. Most common is someone already doing a ranking run in K1/C1 who then wants to do a judges run in C2. What always baffles me is how they expect to then fit in a judging stint

[Dee]

Surely, volunteers who put the most into the sport can be recognised with the Ed Ecclestone award?

Yes (I put someone forward last year ), but I think this is unlikely to get awarded to those that are frequent judges because I don't think it will register on people's awareness. Eg if you have a div 2/3 paddler, x, travelling to different areas and regularly volunteering for a judging stint but with different organisers etc, no one person is likely to be really aware of how much x puts in to the events on a regular basis. (A prem/div1 paddler may be more visible as there is a greater constancy of those involved in organising and running races at that level).