Protest and Jury Method

[boatmum]

Not a rant or rave - but maybe a rave

Just thanks for putting up the Paddler method for protest and also the jury method - very clear, very helpful and hopefully clears up some misconceptions

[jjayes]

As boatmun said all very clear., however 15 minutes after a race run to make a protest is far to short for a paddlers who needs to warm down and get changed. Why is this imposed as it seems very impractical?

[pinkboat]

The 15 mins after a run is not always possible - at Tully there was an occasion where paddlers finishing their run, had to wait for rafts to come down, the course to settle again and then two paddlers from the next class to finish - more than 15 minutes with no time to check results etc. Thank fully no need to protest on this occasion but hopefully the jury would take this sort of issue into consideration if need be.

[BaldockBabe]

As boatmun said all very clear., however 15 minutes after a race run to make a protest is far to short for a paddlers who needs to warm down and get changed. Why is this imposed as it seems very impractical?

Err... protest first??? I have yet to hear of a paddler that doesn't check their results before warming down and changing, they are usually crowded round the timing screens waiting to see where they have come!!!

[Canadian Paddler]

Declared Interest - I was on the Jury for Junior Selection and will be for Senior Selection

Point of Fact: the Rules of Slalom (C36.2) in this country state that you have "15 minutes after the display of the result for the last Competitor in that run" to lodge a protest.

The policy as stated is slightly more lax as it relates to the publishing of unofficial results, rather than the results for the last competitor. I know these are often almost the same time, but this ensures that you a) know where you are relative to your peers before deciding on a protest and b) know the time allowed as the provisional results are time stamped.

If you do not like the rule, do not blame the method, but put a motion to the ACM to change the 15 minutes, then come and argue your case.

[BaldockBabe]

If you do not like the rule, do not blame the method, but put a motion to the ACM to change the 15 minutes, then come and argue your case.

But don't do so unless you are willing to sit on the river bank judging/ timing etc for the extended period in wind/ rain/ snow/ Washburn midgies etc. As any changes to the timing will affect how long after the event all officials have to stay put and when prize giving can take place

[Neil H]

I would be an advocate of having a longer protest time. At some venues by the time the paddler is off the water (maybe Matlock, Abbey) and for those paddlers who have to go see there coach for discussion of run, maybe an objective view, possibly negating or reinforcing the need to protest, it seems too short

[boatmum]

But don't do so unless you are willing to sit on the river bank judging/ timing etc for the extended period in wind/ rain/ snow/ Washburn midgies etc. As any changes to the timing will affect how long after the event all officials have to stay put and when prize giving can take place

Hang on a minute Lets not loose sight that the race is for the paddlers The judges do a fabulous job - but if its cold or wet we usually "come in" as it were, and lurk around control keeping warm etc

It would be interesting to know if there is any empirical data about how long it takes between a paddler getting off the water and if applicable putting in a protest. Then it would perhaps to be easier to make the call as to whether the protest time is too short or not.

I cant remember - do paddlers put the time of their protest on the protest form? I think they do - so if kept these forms could be used to look at what actually happens.

[Neil H]

I think some paddlers use video to decide whether they protest i.e they think they did/didn't have a touch but use it to check. I know it's not accepted evidence but it's human nature as the tech exists. If they are going through steps to take an objective decision to avoid more cost or work for the jury then a bit more time might be beneficial. What was the reason for changing it from half an hour in first place?

[Seedy Paddler]

The documents were posted up at Tully, as I did have look at them there after falling foul of the late posting and protest deadlines on for first runs Saturday. However what was more surprising was that I (or rather on my sons behalf) submitted a protest for each of the remaining runs on Saturday and Sunday - all upheld. Which rather raises the question on the quality of judging for such an important race.

Looking at the Jury document it would be interesting to hear if videos were running, no real evidence of such and never raised as a point for consultation. Indeed our own videos were (correctly) refused as inadmissible. I would also challenge the Jury to state that they did check the judging positions as I did check out one position (after 2 incorrect 50s were awarded in successive runs), the gate judge on Sunday morning was not in a position to judge Gate 9, he was sited below the gate and could not see the bottom of the poles due to the wave. His Section Judge (TJ) was above the gate but was frequently distracted by his dog ambling around the river bank and getting caught up in it's lead.

On Sunday afternoon it was noted that we were one of about 4-5 protests on the same section of gates around the same time. Subsequent Gate Judge advised that penalties were noted but no comments or explanation.

Should we have a system that records the highest penalty and then waits for the paddler to complain within a given time or should we be looking to highlight where there is ambiguity and ensuring that we have a competent assessment.

As someone who has judged for more years than I care to remember dating back to inside and outside touches, I coach paddlers to work within the rules and remove uncertainty. I also try and teach that judgement(s) will normally balance out. A high Tully poses significant judging problems but I have never in circa 40 years of paddling found protest in every run over a weekend - until Tully in March.

CD

[boatmum]

I think judging at Tully was quite difficult on some sections because of the height of waves etc. What tends to happen is where possible, section judges up stream and down stream of such a section will do their best to try and spot "difficult" gates wherever possible. However there is also a reliance on gate judges to fill in where the line of sight is sometimes difficult. Often it is the case that where a section judge has a good line of sight on 3 gates in a 4 gate section, one of the gates is not so great. So you try and position the gate judge in such a way that it is covered. However sometimes gate judges wander

In an ideal world we would have video evidence for everyone - but that is cost prohibitive and while I sympathise with paddlers who have coaches or families videoing for them, until that facility is available for everyone from the same camera sighting it cant be accepted. Also on a river like Tully the view from nearside bank can be very different from the far side bank - its all in the angles

I think it is worth remembering too that there are a number of paddlers - not all - who will protest "whatever" at such an important race - which in itself I suppose raises questions - but it is their prerogative to do so should they want to. I have always been interested in how many more protests there are at selection races than at normal ranking races and with such a lot at stake I guess it should come as no surprise.

Judges will do their very best, often in difficult circumstances - section and gate -and the jury that is working hard at our selection races are fair, thorough and very experienced - all of them current or ex paddlers so technically very experienced too. And whether paddlers believe this or not I have always felt they do their very best for all the paddlers. Not awarding a bone fide penalty to a paddler disadvantages the other paddlers in the same way as incorrectly awarding a penalty affects a specific paddler.

[BaldockBabe]

Firstly we must remember that this is the method statement for Selection which is at a known venue where there is adequate time to complete your run and protest within the given time scale. All runs are recorded at selection so video evidence may be used provided that it if from the official video and provided that it is conclusive.

Internationally there is a move to making enquiry time 5 minutes regardless of venue! This is because it is better for spectators and tv. Something we need to bear in mind if we are pushing for our sport to get move coverage domestically.

If we are going off topic and discussing the 15 mins rules elsewhere then I agree discretion is required. Not so that paddlers that have the benefit of coaches and video can double check (I have little sympathy for that argument as others don't have that benefit) But because at Llyndysul and Washburn or is not physically possible to stay on for safety then get back in time, and in instances where paddlers are delayed due to safety duties it would not be fair to disadvantage them. The jury at events like this should use their discretion.

If I recall the change to 15 mins was to deal with a discrepancy where by the classes all had 30mins except the last class which always had 15 mins.

[Neil H]

Not so that paddlers that have the benefit of coaches and video can double check (I have little sympathy for that argument as others don't have that benefit)

Ah now what I meant was that they would review what they had and decide not to protest, thus being a positive thing

[Neil H]

All runs are recorded at selection so video evidence may be used provided that it if from the official video and provided that it is conclusive.

I did not know that

[Neil H]

I also try and teach that judgement(s) will normally balance out.CD

Not awarding a bone fide penalty to a paddler disadvantages the other paddlers in the same way as incorrectly awarding a penalty affects a specific paddler.

I hear the balancing out view all the time but I can't say that I am an advocate of it. If a paddler gets awarded a penalty which wasn't, or gets one missed that was then both things are wrong and certainly it wouldn't balance out for the athlete if it came in a selection race and if they got away with something, then as boatmum rightly points out it could affect others placing in a crucial race (for them.) I stood next to a highly ranked prem paddler after a run recently who was very vocal on the awarding of a disputed penalty "it's killing the sport." I don't know I would go that far but such statements are not positive for anyone