Strange ! You were responding to my question on what other chatter boards are available.
Actually, I asked that question in response to your statement "take this debate elsewhere on chatter". As far as I am concerned, like JJayes, the only available public forum for salmon discussions is this one.
Now back to the discussion, how does one challenge IP to ensure there is a fair, transparent and consistent selection policy both in the content and how it is executed ?
GB Selection Policy
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Selection Policy
Silver surfer - you might want to take a look at the Scottish Squad policy which has been published on the Canoe Scotland website. It all looks quite glossy but has become an exercise in nice paperwork rather than delivering canoeing - http://www.canoescotland.org/Compete/Performance.aspx. The final performance document is at http://www.canoescotland.org/Portals/0/ ... 0final.pdf
It states some very specific criteria to get into the 'Vision' squad and 'Horizon' Squad (Vision is the better of the 2 squads) but this is then caveated with these criteria are for guidance only. You now have to apply to be considered for the squad. Once you apply for the squad, the Inclusion Panel will also use additional information from Athlete profiling and application.
The main page says -
SCA 4 pillars to generate performance
To push the performance forward, we deliver support to Scottish athletes nominated in the different programmes through 4 Key factors:
Coach contact time: We work with high calibre people (SCA Staff, Club coaches and Volunteers) to deliver coach led training on a day to day basis, and also during training camps and races, to consistently follow, advise and coach athletes towards their journey
Race Environment contact time: We organise training camps and support races to give athletes world class standard experience to prepare and succeed at major events.
Daily Training Environment: This is our commitment to raise the standard of local training in Scotland. We work closely with local clubs, schools and different local partner to generate a competitive environment and a coordinated support to access all facilities needed to generate high performance.
Research & Development: We want to discover and create new knowledge about talent development and performance delivery to enabling canoieng to better support athletes and coaches.
Just my opinion, but these 4 pillars have long since crumbled......
It states some very specific criteria to get into the 'Vision' squad and 'Horizon' Squad (Vision is the better of the 2 squads) but this is then caveated with these criteria are for guidance only. You now have to apply to be considered for the squad. Once you apply for the squad, the Inclusion Panel will also use additional information from Athlete profiling and application.
The main page says -
SCA 4 pillars to generate performance
To push the performance forward, we deliver support to Scottish athletes nominated in the different programmes through 4 Key factors:
Coach contact time: We work with high calibre people (SCA Staff, Club coaches and Volunteers) to deliver coach led training on a day to day basis, and also during training camps and races, to consistently follow, advise and coach athletes towards their journey
Race Environment contact time: We organise training camps and support races to give athletes world class standard experience to prepare and succeed at major events.
Daily Training Environment: This is our commitment to raise the standard of local training in Scotland. We work closely with local clubs, schools and different local partner to generate a competitive environment and a coordinated support to access all facilities needed to generate high performance.
Research & Development: We want to discover and create new knowledge about talent development and performance delivery to enabling canoieng to better support athletes and coaches.
Just my opinion, but these 4 pillars have long since crumbled......
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Selection Policy
When I started this post it was to raise my concerns over the selection of the GB Junior European team, or more specifically, the execution of the Selection Policy. I was chastised for labelling this post as the GB Junior European team, and I changed it to GB Selection Policy.
I still stand by my posts, but I'm surprised that whilst there are so many championing our GB Junior European team and congratulating them, no one is asking, but why are they not on the GB Junior World team?
If I had been selected for the GB Junior European team, I would be asking why if the IP and GB canoeing believe I am good enough for the European team, why not the GB Junior World team (as in previous years), and more to the point, why do I need to race again at LV to prove myself or in some cases why am I not allowed to race at LV.
Why are there separate GB Junior European and World teams this year ? The Selection Policy is subtle, but the key difference is that those paddlers on the GB Junior World team have more chance of delivering at top 10 place.
Note: Cost is not the reason because the budget must be there to send a full squad, as paddlers get automatic selection if they hit the percentage targets. It would be poor management therefore not to have that funding in place.
This creates a two tier platform of development and performance delivery. But if the GB European team is about development, would racing at LV in the U23/S selection series not aid that development and therefore make sense? So why have 7 paddlers selected for the GB Junior European team not been allowed to race?
Those paddlers eligible (only 8 out of the 15 on the GB Junior Euro team) to paddle at LV for a place on the GB Junior Worlds team have to archive the performance targets for their age on 2 of their 6 runs for automatic selection.
It is interesting to note that the majority of the non eligible paddlers already have wildcards along with many other Juniors.
JJayes stated on another post "To be successful requires a strength and determination to make it no matter what the obstacles are."
With that thought in mind and going back to the Selection Policy, and the argument put forward for having separate GB Junior and World teams, what happens if a non eligible Junior paddler achieves 2 out of the 6 percentages targets at LV?
So theoretically and more than likely, we will have Junior paddlers who meet the criteria for the GB Junior World Team, but not eligible, and therefore we will not send a full GB Junior World Team!
Point of interest: There were only 4 non-European paddlers (Australia and Brazil) that made the top 10 across all classes at the Junior Worlds in Liptovsky last year. So whilst the number of paddlers at the Junior Worlds might be higher than the Junior Euros, the quality and depth of paddlers isn't.
To conclude, there are many flaws in the Selection Policy, and there is a lack of transparency and ambiguity in its execution. As pointed out by boatmum, maybe this isn't the right forum for this discussion, especially given the posts to views ratio, but I don't think there is a forum period for such a discussion.
If anyone from the IP and GB canoeing do read these post, when drafting the Junior Selection Policy next year, please consider:
1) Race venues:
- A race per each home nation.
2) Percentage targets:
- A measure is required, but set and publish an upper limit before applying discretion to select a team
3) GB Team:
- One team, don't differentiate between Euros and Words
4) LV Race:
- If a race at LV is to be held, make it open to all junior paddlers
5) Draft Policy:
- The IP should be more transparent and open when soliciting feedback.
Thank you
I still stand by my posts, but I'm surprised that whilst there are so many championing our GB Junior European team and congratulating them, no one is asking, but why are they not on the GB Junior World team?
If I had been selected for the GB Junior European team, I would be asking why if the IP and GB canoeing believe I am good enough for the European team, why not the GB Junior World team (as in previous years), and more to the point, why do I need to race again at LV to prove myself or in some cases why am I not allowed to race at LV.
Why are there separate GB Junior European and World teams this year ? The Selection Policy is subtle, but the key difference is that those paddlers on the GB Junior World team have more chance of delivering at top 10 place.
Note: Cost is not the reason because the budget must be there to send a full squad, as paddlers get automatic selection if they hit the percentage targets. It would be poor management therefore not to have that funding in place.
This creates a two tier platform of development and performance delivery. But if the GB European team is about development, would racing at LV in the U23/S selection series not aid that development and therefore make sense? So why have 7 paddlers selected for the GB Junior European team not been allowed to race?
Those paddlers eligible (only 8 out of the 15 on the GB Junior Euro team) to paddle at LV for a place on the GB Junior Worlds team have to archive the performance targets for their age on 2 of their 6 runs for automatic selection.
It is interesting to note that the majority of the non eligible paddlers already have wildcards along with many other Juniors.
JJayes stated on another post "To be successful requires a strength and determination to make it no matter what the obstacles are."
With that thought in mind and going back to the Selection Policy, and the argument put forward for having separate GB Junior and World teams, what happens if a non eligible Junior paddler achieves 2 out of the 6 percentages targets at LV?
So theoretically and more than likely, we will have Junior paddlers who meet the criteria for the GB Junior World Team, but not eligible, and therefore we will not send a full GB Junior World Team!
Point of interest: There were only 4 non-European paddlers (Australia and Brazil) that made the top 10 across all classes at the Junior Worlds in Liptovsky last year. So whilst the number of paddlers at the Junior Worlds might be higher than the Junior Euros, the quality and depth of paddlers isn't.
To conclude, there are many flaws in the Selection Policy, and there is a lack of transparency and ambiguity in its execution. As pointed out by boatmum, maybe this isn't the right forum for this discussion, especially given the posts to views ratio, but I don't think there is a forum period for such a discussion.
If anyone from the IP and GB canoeing do read these post, when drafting the Junior Selection Policy next year, please consider:
1) Race venues:
- A race per each home nation.
2) Percentage targets:
- A measure is required, but set and publish an upper limit before applying discretion to select a team
3) GB Team:
- One team, don't differentiate between Euros and Words
4) LV Race:
- If a race at LV is to be held, make it open to all junior paddlers
5) Draft Policy:
- The IP should be more transparent and open when soliciting feedback.
Thank you
Re: GB Selection Policy
I agree with many of your points but the problems with percentages is that they are not an exact science - they vary according to the course and water water level - last year percentages were easy to get at Tully, this year they were not.
I suspect that GB would have looked at what the overall trip would cost, what a reasonable athlete contribution and would be and what would make the trip worthwhile for those selected. This must have decided the criteria needed to be met to be selected to go to the Worlds (which I understand is to make a final) and then looked at who was likely to do this. This would have involved looking at
1. how many GB Junior athletes in previous years have made finals
2. The J18s in the team last year who are still juniors and so have some past performance at international standard to consider e.g. did they make the final last year or where they close in which case you could work on the assumption they are likely to achieve more this year
3. The new J18s likely to be in the team this year and what their chances of success are this year
Based on this, I suspect they have a rough idea of the likely athletes and so instead of a full team they have budgeted for 1/2 a team with the corresponding coaching and support staff.
The paddler cost for the World Championships is £1500 and for the European Championships is £700. Over 60% of the costs are met by GB Canoeing so for the Worlds, the total cost is £3750.
Unfortunately, many decisions have to consider financial constraints. There could be an argument that you says you select a full team but you only fund those that have made certain criteria so those will the most chances of success are funded. However, this could result in some athletes being unable to go as they couldn't afford it.
Trying to write a watertight selection policy considering all scenarios is almost impossible. All we can do is do our best, be consistent and fair, lay out the principles for selection and have some element of discretion.
I suspect that the budget is not there to send a full squad. A full squad was sent to America but Tesco sponsorship was still in place.Note: Cost is not the reason because the budget must be there to send a full squad, as paddlers get automatic selection if they hit the percentage targets. It would be poor management therefore not to have that funding in place.
I suspect that GB would have looked at what the overall trip would cost, what a reasonable athlete contribution and would be and what would make the trip worthwhile for those selected. This must have decided the criteria needed to be met to be selected to go to the Worlds (which I understand is to make a final) and then looked at who was likely to do this. This would have involved looking at
1. how many GB Junior athletes in previous years have made finals
2. The J18s in the team last year who are still juniors and so have some past performance at international standard to consider e.g. did they make the final last year or where they close in which case you could work on the assumption they are likely to achieve more this year
3. The new J18s likely to be in the team this year and what their chances of success are this year
Based on this, I suspect they have a rough idea of the likely athletes and so instead of a full team they have budgeted for 1/2 a team with the corresponding coaching and support staff.
The paddler cost for the World Championships is £1500 and for the European Championships is £700. Over 60% of the costs are met by GB Canoeing so for the Worlds, the total cost is £3750.
Unfortunately, many decisions have to consider financial constraints. There could be an argument that you says you select a full team but you only fund those that have made certain criteria so those will the most chances of success are funded. However, this could result in some athletes being unable to go as they couldn't afford it.
Trying to write a watertight selection policy considering all scenarios is almost impossible. All we can do is do our best, be consistent and fair, lay out the principles for selection and have some element of discretion.
Re: GB Selection Policy
[quote] The paddler cost for the World Championships is £1500 and for the European Championships is £700. Over 60% of the costs are met by GB Canoeing so for the Worlds, the total cost is £3750.
£3750!!! That really is some trip.
What does that price include?
£3750!!! That really is some trip.
What does that price include?
Re: GB Selection Policy
£3750 .... For three weeks all inclusive to Australia sounds pretty good value to me assuming it includes flights ( £1000+) , all transfers, water fees, food ,accom etc.
Re: GB Selection Policy
Just a note for information. We would have held a junior selection race in Wales this year as the intent is to spread these around fairly. Unfortunately however Canoe Wales were not able to support such a race this year. We hope this will change next year.
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SilverSurfer
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 1:09 pm
- Location: Nottingham
Re: GB Selection Policy
It is my understanding that the race venues were changed in response to feedback on cost and training requirements. I also understand that there was an agreement between the home nations that they would rotate, such that they each home nation would run a race in 2 of the following 3 years. Wales were the first home nation to volunteer to drop their race under this new agreement.
The Draft Selection Policy reflected this,extract below:
Draft Policy:
The principle of running junior selection across Scotland, Wales and England is well established. The International Panel from 2014 in response to feedback on cost grounds and training requirements for preparation will run junior selection on a rotational basis across 2 of the Home Nations each year for 2014, 2015 and 2016. Each Home Nation (Sco/Eng/Wal) will therefore have the opportunity to host a junior selection race in 2 of the next 3 years.
However, this was subsequently changed in the final version of the Selection Policy, with the rotational policy being dropped.
Final Policy:
The principle of running junior selection across Scotland, Wales and England will continue in 2015. A Home Nation has the opportunity to withdraw from hosting a race in any given year. The International Panel does reserve the right to adjust this principle to reflect circumstances based on the International calendar to ensure the staging of an appropriate selection series.
I understand this was due to Scotland not being willing to drop a selection race on a rotational basis when it came to their turn !
So I believe all 3 home nations venues will be back on the race calendar next year.
The Draft Selection Policy reflected this,extract below:
Draft Policy:
The principle of running junior selection across Scotland, Wales and England is well established. The International Panel from 2014 in response to feedback on cost grounds and training requirements for preparation will run junior selection on a rotational basis across 2 of the Home Nations each year for 2014, 2015 and 2016. Each Home Nation (Sco/Eng/Wal) will therefore have the opportunity to host a junior selection race in 2 of the next 3 years.
However, this was subsequently changed in the final version of the Selection Policy, with the rotational policy being dropped.
Final Policy:
The principle of running junior selection across Scotland, Wales and England will continue in 2015. A Home Nation has the opportunity to withdraw from hosting a race in any given year. The International Panel does reserve the right to adjust this principle to reflect circumstances based on the International calendar to ensure the staging of an appropriate selection series.
I understand this was due to Scotland not being willing to drop a selection race on a rotational basis when it came to their turn !
So I believe all 3 home nations venues will be back on the race calendar next year.
Re: GB Selection Policy
That is correct, initally Scotland were in agreement with this but later changed their minds! Where possible in future selection will be held in the 3 home nations.
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Canadian Paddler
- Posts: 1480
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
- Location: Peterborough
- Contact:
Re: GB Selection Policy
Going to be a busy Spring then. . . Junior Worlds in Brazil are 24 - 26 April (as opposed to 23-27 April this year). So if we are to have three junior / Under 23 races next year, that will be three weekends in March, in three countries, so starting earlier than this year (8 March)
NOT looking forward to judging races on a river bank in FEBRUARY!
We may have issues getting enough volunteers to give up that much time that early in the season. The events ARE all about the paddlers, but we have to consider that we need volunteers to be able to run them.
No issue with the ambition to hold events in every country, but when the Worlds are this early, the events may have to be at the end of this season, or accept that we will not be able to be in all nations.
Ho hum who would be a volunteer on the IP, phrases like "catch 22" and "damned if you do damned if you don't" come to mind.
Going away to put on flameproof clothing, or perhaps to sleep, a number of the volunteers have been helping run events every weekend since 8 March, and will be busy again this weekend. Makes for tired people at work.
NOT looking forward to judging races on a river bank in FEBRUARY!
We may have issues getting enough volunteers to give up that much time that early in the season. The events ARE all about the paddlers, but we have to consider that we need volunteers to be able to run them.No issue with the ambition to hold events in every country, but when the Worlds are this early, the events may have to be at the end of this season, or accept that we will not be able to be in all nations.
Ho hum who would be a volunteer on the IP, phrases like "catch 22" and "damned if you do damned if you don't" come to mind.
Going away to put on flameproof clothing, or perhaps to sleep, a number of the volunteers have been helping run events every weekend since 8 March, and will be busy again this weekend. Makes for tired people at work.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points
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BaldockBabe
- Posts: 307
- Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:55 am
Re: GB Selection Policy
Isn't work the place you go to to get some sleep?Canadian Paddler wrote: a number of the volunteers have been helping run events every weekend since 8 March, and will be busy again this weekend. Makes for tired people at work.
Re: GB Selection Policy
Or maybe we could actually think a little more 'out of the box' , at the risk of being flamedCanadian Paddler wrote:Going to be a busy Spring then. . . Junior Worlds in Brazil are 24 - 26 April (as opposed to 23-27 April this year). So if we are to have three junior / Under 23 races next year, that will be three weekends in March, in three countries, so starting earlier than this year (8 March)
NOT looking forward to judging races on a river bank in FEBRUARY!
No issue with the ambition to hold events in every country, but when the Worlds are this early, the events may have to be at the end of this season, or accept that we will not be able to be in all nations.
Going away to put on flameproof clothing, or perhaps to sleep, a number of the volunteers have been helping run events every weekend since 8 March, and will be busy again this weekend. Makes for tired people at work.
and given the last races of the (Prem /1) season are likely to be at HPP (instead of Serpents - see Comm Mtg minutes 16/3) and Lee Valley, why not have the Junior selection races at the end of the season, which gives the team the opportunity to train together through Winter. Easter is also a week earlier in 2015 being 3-6th April. We could then set the Prem calendar for next season (sorry Munchkin) with a race each month (akin to a plan formulated a year or so ago by a Prem paddler) rather than cramming the 1st three in 8 days early part of this year, because of selection, and then nothing for 5 months until September. Right off into my bunker
..........see you all at the weekendRe: GB Selection Policy
OK that will go down well - 2 races in England....!! All very well suggesting selection for juniors is 5 months esarlier however these are developing athletes and who is at their peak in October could be quite different to those at their peak in March.
As for spreading the races out - the slalom committee have asked previously for clubs to run races at specific times to do just that but at the end of the day if the clubs won't do this for whatever reason we are at their mercy. much is to do with prohibitive cost of water beyond April. It is however pointless having any races from mid July until the first weekend in August as clubs have problems with manpower because of holidays and attendence levels would be far from the optimum level. And of course how many times do the slalom committee try and "manage" thr calendar only for issues to be brought to the ACM and thir management overturned!!
As for spreading the races out - the slalom committee have asked previously for clubs to run races at specific times to do just that but at the end of the day if the clubs won't do this for whatever reason we are at their mercy. much is to do with prohibitive cost of water beyond April. It is however pointless having any races from mid July until the first weekend in August as clubs have problems with manpower because of holidays and attendence levels would be far from the optimum level. And of course how many times do the slalom committee try and "manage" thr calendar only for issues to be brought to the ACM and thir management overturned!!
Re: GB Selection Policy
OK - so just in the spirit of good debate and chewing the fat
and acknowledging that slalom - like most sports - is about who performs "on the day" as read.
Can anyone see any correlation - I'm talking juniors now - between the end of season rankings and those who make junior selection? I'd be really surprised if there was no correlation at all.
So here's something to debate - given that very early junior races are an issue could we not think about using the 3 top ranked juniors in each class as being the Junior GB squad?
Before I put my tin hat on
it would take pressure off running 3 early races at venues that one way or another are not ideal travel wise etc that time of year. It could lend more "value" to the ranking races held throughout the year, it would possibly afford better consistency/continuity in terms of results over a range of different race venues, possibly allows for injuries or illness that could occur just before "selection" races, removes the stress at the start of the season when younger paddlers are looking at exams or mocks or prelims if in Scotland etc.
Also for juniors there would appear to be less chance of them having to "miss" out domestic races as happens with the U23s and Seniors because of racing abroad etc
In real terms I guess it polarises the races at the end of the season BUT would there be mileage in at least having a look at something like this?
and acknowledging that slalom - like most sports - is about who performs "on the day" as read.
Can anyone see any correlation - I'm talking juniors now - between the end of season rankings and those who make junior selection? I'd be really surprised if there was no correlation at all.
So here's something to debate - given that very early junior races are an issue could we not think about using the 3 top ranked juniors in each class as being the Junior GB squad?
Before I put my tin hat on
it would take pressure off running 3 early races at venues that one way or another are not ideal travel wise etc that time of year. It could lend more "value" to the ranking races held throughout the year, it would possibly afford better consistency/continuity in terms of results over a range of different race venues, possibly allows for injuries or illness that could occur just before "selection" races, removes the stress at the start of the season when younger paddlers are looking at exams or mocks or prelims if in Scotland etc.
Also for juniors there would appear to be less chance of them having to "miss" out domestic races as happens with the U23s and Seniors because of racing abroad etc
In real terms I guess it polarises the races at the end of the season BUT would there be mileage in at least having a look at something like this?
Re: GB Selection Policy
Seeing that racing is about performing under pressure. How about one race of one run selection event. First past post takes the spot. USA sport has done it for years. No discretion debate required, no I.P. needed! Nice and easy to organise. Every one knows where they stand. Performance rules! All big races come down to one run under pressure.
No tin hat required, I am serious.
No tin hat required, I am serious.