6.9 Paddle Up Token

[Canadian Paddler]

There has been some confusion over the validity of a paddle up token with regards to the points total required for promotion.
The current rule does not allow paddle up tokens to be counted as 1,000 points, but to count them as part of the ‘or gaining maximum points at three events.
The rule will be changed to allow a paddle up token to be counted as 1,000 points or a win. Page 55
B3.3.1 “Paddle Up”
A competitor ranked in any given division may enter races designed for the next division up (referred to below as the Host division). This is intended to enable paddlers to get experience of more challenging racing conditions and to allow them to compare their abilities against higher-division paddlers. Provided that the class is quorate, a competitor “paddling up” achieving a result better than that achieved by 40% of the ranked paddlers may count that result as 1,000 points. competing in that class at three events in the same season may claim promotion into the higher division

[Neil H]

If I am reading this right, and I am not sure if I am, so will be more than happy to stand corrected. The idea of paddle up is as stated, 'enable paddlers to get experience of more challenging racing conditions and to allow them to compare their abilities against higher-division paddlers.'

Should this not be about then exactly that and the opportunity to be consistent against peers as opposed to entering a race and getting a break.

Technically it would be possible for a number, of say division 1 paddlers to enter an event, two as paddle up and one for whatever reason as a judge. The judging paddler to get a time above the paddle up competitors and providing they were over the 40% to get a 1000 points, even though being outperformed by their divisional colleague.

Not sure if there are any example of this and frankly I am not so sad to go looking...........I might be significantly bored at some point though.

What is the percentage of paddle ups going over 40% in 2014

Hope this makes sense

There has been some confusion over the validity of a paddle up token with regards to the points total required for promotion.
The current rule does not allow paddle up tokens to be counted as 1,000 points, but to count them as part of the ‘or gaining maximum points at three events.
The rule will be changed to allow a paddle up token to be counted as 1,000 points or a win. Page 55
B3.3.1 “Paddle Up”
A competitor ranked in any given division may enter races designed for the next division up (referred to below as the Host division). This is intended to enable paddlers to get experience of more challenging racing conditions and to allow them to compare their abilities against higher-division paddlers. Provided that the class is quorate, a competitor “paddling up” achieving a result better than that achieved by 40% of the ranked paddlers may count that result as 1,000 points. competing in that class at three events in the same season may claim promotion into the higher division

[Canadian Paddler]

Not sure I understand your point Neil.

But Officials are not entering the event, so cannot earn paddle up tokens or, if this goes through, 1,000 points. So yes, as now, the official could beat the 'paddle upers', but get no points. It is possible that the paddle ups might also be judging (as we are now shorter of judges - they are paddling up!). That is however a matter to do with 'paddle up' in general, not the specific change in this motion

The purpose of this, is not to allow differential points for those paddling up, just to regularise the confusion over paddle up being a win, but not 1,000 points.

BTW at a double division event, you will not be able to count points in your ranked division AND 1,000 points for paddle up.

[andy n]

So, in a double division event, if several paddlers from the lower division achieve a paddle up result do they all get 1000 points? e.g. Div 2/3 Slalom with 10 paddlers in Div 3. The top 3 achieve paddle up result compared to the Div 2's. Normally points would be 1000, 900, 800, 700 etc. for the Div 3 paddlers. Does proposed rule give points 1000, 1000, 1000, 700?

[Seedy Paddler]

You have to elect to paddle up rather than enter your own division, so potentially at a 2-3, div 3 could elect to pay the Div 2 entry and paddle up. However even if the beat all the Div 3 paddlers but failed to beat 40% of the Div 2 paddlers they would gain nill points... Alternatively if 3 elected to paddle up and all beat 40% of the Div 2 paddlers then they would each gain 1000 points to go towards promotion. Win some, you lose some but you could opt to gamble before the race..

[Canadian Paddler]

Errr Actually, there was a decision that in double division races, all the lower division paddlers are eligible for paddle up points.

So if there are five paddlers in div 3, who are good enough to beat 40% of the division 2, they currently can all 5 claim a paddle up token. And if this succeeds all five can claim 1,000 points.

I foresee problems / long nights for the automated ranking lists, as currently it is the paddlers' responsibility to collate paddle up tokens, the systems will need changing to check for paddle up tokens to include them as 1,000 points.

BUT how is this different to a division 4 event, where there are five C1M (or K1W, or C1W, or C2) that all get a time that beats the last promoted K1M? All five are promoted regardless of the number in the C1M class?

[Neil H]

Well I was hoping to kick off the debate as no-one else had.

I was a bit confused over how many paddlers could achieve 1000 points.

What I was alluding to was that a judge, albeit clearly not entered as a paddle up, could achieve a time better than a paddler of the same division who had entered PU and obviously not gain any points but that wouldn't necessarily mean that the paddler who did enter was the best on the day - so this would be discouraging paddlers from judging - which is exacerbating a problem.

What, paddle ups could also be judging?

[Seedy Paddler]

OK still trying to get the grey matter around this concept and ran a couple of checks from last year, most made no difference and then I had a look at West Tanfield (27/9/14)a Div 2/3/4 slalom.

No issue between Div 2 & 3 K1M, the fastest Div 3 missed the 40% cut

How do we work at Div 4 as it does state "any given division",
Winning Div 4 K1M would place 5th in Div 2
Top 3 were promoted on the 1:5 rule (11 starters)
However the top 6 would all qualify for Div 3 paddle up tokens, should this then qualify as the equivalent of a win (1000 pts) and hence promotion?

As Division 4 do not gain points how would a paddle up be recognised?

[Neil H]

Interesting

The reason I asked if there were any stats on how many PU's had made the 40% was because I have certainly been at races where it would be highly unlikely for the majority of PU's to make the percentage. What is the real reason for entering then? To gain experience, certainly and fair enough, or to take part without the hassle of judging? That too probably, have we exacerbated a problem here. Not sure how you ascertain if paddles up have a genuine chance of achieving percentage though.

[BaldockBabe]

Looking at the ranking lists 10 people have used pu's to get promoted. Most from 3 to 2 but a couple from 1 to Prem. On that basis there does appear to be a genuine chance to make %. Though I am not going through all the results to see what % these are compared to the total number of pu's.

[Neil H]

Thanks for taking the time to look BB

[Jaytee]

My understanding is that paddlers enter a double division event in either their own division or as a paddle-up to the next one. Therefore it is clear to all whether they should be included in the ranking points or qualify for a paddle-up 'token' (or 1000 points if the motion is passed), but never both.
If I am correct, this should aid clarity.
If not, I'd like to be put straight!

[Dee]

As per CP's post further up, my understanding is that, at a double event, where both divisions are doing the same course, all of the lower division are automatically eligible for a 'paddle up token' as things stand.

However, if the two divisions are running a different course (eg a gate omitted for the lower division) then a paddler would have to elect to paddle up and in doing so would not gain any points at the moment.

[djberriman]

Some thoughts/issues.

Under the current system (token) the ranking are not affected and when a paddler claimed promotion they simply claimed there tokens when applying for their new bib.

Under the proposed system (1000 points) is the intention this will affect their ranking? Thus every paddle up victory (PV) will have to be accounted for in the ranking database to reflect the paddlers true ranking. If so then ALL results must indicate when a PV has been acheived as part of the results. Simply Slalom already does this (not sure if it is in all cases I'll have to check with Ken) but we must make it a requirement that all result (systems) provide this indication if this is the intention.

It should also be clarified by the ACM whether points (and PV) are part of the 'results' and therefore must be published on the day or whether they can be published later. My preference is that points should be part of the official on the day results so that paddlers can check them on the day, particular in the cases of newly promoted paddlers and PU paddlers where mistakes can be made and only spotted once the points are displayed.

It would also help greatly if PU paddlers had their 'real' bib number indicated in the CLS column so that their PU result can be linked to their lower division bib. If this is not done and their name is spelt incorrectly (or a nick name/shortening isued) then it will be very hard to link their PU result.

The more I think about this I belive this should be better left as the token and NOT 1000 points it is too difficult to implement in many ways and will probably lead to a lot of errors/confusion.

Personally I think the rule should have been left as it orignally was focused on allowing paddlers to challenge themselves on bigger water. That intention seems to have been diluted by allow them to claim a PU on the same water.

[Ken Trollope]

It is not clear in the motion to whether the second paragraph of rule B3.3.1
‘In the case of a multi-divisional event ...........................”paddle up” promotion results.’ is to be deleted.
I am not sure if this has ever been implemented as most people think you have to make a choice
pay the money, paddle up and take a chance OR stay in your own division and get normal ranking points.

The rule as it stands it implies that if the lower division paddler wins the class and beats 40% of the higher divisional paddlers
they get 1000 points AND a “paddle up token”.
Will this mean if points replace tokens the paddler will get 2000 points!!

I am tending to agree with Duncan but in any case the Second paragraph should be removed as it defeats the object of paddling up.