Div1 2016 - someone may not be able to count

[paddlerparent]

Just read the summary on the slalom page saying that div1 will be 11% less next season - i've just looked at the promotions & demotions & come up with 6% less or 18 boats

..........2015......2016
K1W......63.........64
K1M......68.........138
C1W......11.........28
C1M......47.........41
Tot.......289.......271

(Numbers above are start of season)


.

[Arrowcraft]

They should have put up 30 k1 M from1 to prem to balance the divisions. Then prem races will make money not lose money and div 1 is managable. Another missed opportunity.

[Pingu]

I may be wrong but I believe that the calculation will include those boats with two paddles and four arms.

If you include 50% of the numbers in the C2 Premier/Division 1 in both years, you do get a 12% decrease.

[HPPaddle]

There seems to be no short season exemption from demotion from Div1 according to this website, so anyone with less than 1000 points in div 1 is stated as being demoted, even if they have just recently been promoted. That means 49 K1M and 14 K1W demoted from Div 1. If the short season protection applies then this needs to be clarified quickly. Currently the short season protection is only mentioned in relation to Prem.

[paddlerparent]

Of course c2 and vets are missing from above calcs, a number of demotions from div1 may qualify for and paddle as vets next season so vets numbers may increase too

[djberriman]

Short Season does of course count and does not need to be said as that is part of the rules.

I can confirm (having been working hard over the last few days with Nick to sort out the 2016 ranking database) that there are 18 demoted from div 1 to div 2 K1M and 4 from div 1 to div 2 K1W.

I believe start of season figures for last year were:-

64 K1W
162 K1M
26 C1W
46 C1M

Total 298

Thats about 10% reduction, including C2's its 11%.

[djberriman]

PS. If you think 'they' should have put up 30 paddlers to prem you could have put it forward as a motion to be voted on.

[harratts]

I don't think that end of season promotions and demotions are things that ACM motions to be voted on can be submitted for.

My understand is that they are down to the discretion of the Canoe Slalom Committee and / or their representatives.

To be honest I was expecting a greater reduction in the Div. 1 figures myself but let's hope that what has been done works.

This was the biggest barrier against the introduction of portable points in my view as it was not a viable option for any Div. 2 paddler to paddle up given that all of the Div. 1 races would be full with host division paddlers.

Steve

[Arrowcraft]

I don't see the fuss, but your response is laughable, I should have put it up for vote? Seriously?. I will nominate that and a whole bunch of stuff next year. How do I get on the committee by the way? There are better ways to deal with the issues that we have been. div 1 is too big and Prem is too small...you might have worked that one out all by yourself.

Portable points will have no impact, it's a waste of time without a divisional restructure to go with it. Paddle up is a waste of time unless you are returning or on the point of promotion anyway. Just give them the points they would get and then it has some use, beyond making up the financial loss that would happen in prem without paddle up entries. We should push people upwards not downwards. Make newer paddlers beat experienced paddlers.

So do we expect the D1 demotees to race in the Div 2 at Nene or Howsham or Matlock? I think not. Chances are they will stop racing, so well done, that will certainly thin out the sport a bit. so that's less memberships and less race fees, fewer boats and reduced participation. Great job. lol. Some of these older guys are easy to beat at Cardington or Matlock, but hard to beat at HPP or Chapel falls because they have experience.

Why not rank races rather than the paddlers, then allocate higher points to the higher races and have a single league? The capable paddlers and paddlers on the up will race at the harder events and get more points and so move up the league.

Restructure the leagues. The top 99 in each class are P then number 100 -199 are D1 etc (bib starts with 1). Points based on the top 5 results in the year. Top 10 in racers in each class, plus the current team race off over a 3 race series at the end of the year to pick next years teams. straight race, no preselects or any of that nonsense.

We want to keep people in the sport, not drive them away. Make it fun, easy to use, accessible and transparent. Do away with all the favouritism, make them race for it, winners take all. It's all a bit dull and too complicated at the moment.

[Canadian Paddler]

You get on the committee by getting a club to propose you at the ACM and then being elected. (If there are enough people willing to volunteer to need an election). You are then elected for a two year period, and can stand for re-election after that.

If you want to get rid of the divisional system, then talk to people during the year, and get your club to propose just that at the ACM, then the democratic process will see if people agree with you. OR talk to Dave Spencer / Duncan about being part of teh review of portable points.

BTW demotion was set at the same level it has been for many years, 1,000 points. Those that can not get 1,000 points from 5 races are averaging less than 200 points a race, not not finishing well up in any event.

[djberriman]

"So do we expect the D1 demotees to race in the Div 2 at Nene or Howsham or Matlock?"

Yes we do, and yes I did it the year before last having had a bad year injured (and this year not much better for the same reason), and in honest truth it was quite fun, even given the number of demotees trying to get back in div 1 and the ambitious div 2 paddlers it only took 5 races.

I could (and anyone 35 or over) have just become a VET and stayed in Prem/1.

There was at the time one person who I had sympathy for and that was a paddler who had raced once due to other commitments and got 800 points and got demoted.

As canadian paddler states if you want to change things get involved at the ACM, put forward motions, join the committee - there were a number of places available this year and there will be next.

[djberriman]

"Why not rank races rather than the paddlers"

Sounds a good idea but who is going to do it?

Probably fairly easy on man made courses where there is some guarantee of water levels (even then course design can have a huge effect) but who does it and who agrees it at natural courses which can literally change within 24 hours such as Tully this year where the course had to be totally changed between Friday night and Saturday morning due to river levels.

Sounds over complicated to me and you would have no idea how many points you were likely to get until the day of the event. Course defined as easy on the day, you've travelled 6 hours each way, spent a couple of hundred pounds and your weekend for next to no points. Good way to put people off the sport.

[Arrowcraft]

Cool. I am chairman of our club, so nominating should be easy. I will put forward for the ctee and I will also contact Dave Spence and Duncan about being involved in the Portable Points review. That's great feedback. Thanks.

I get it for injuries, that's fine, just dont want to lose the older paddlers as they have so much experience on and off the water.

Ranking venues is actually pretty straightforward. We would reach consensus pretty quickly save for a couple of venues. Tully is top level, as is Most of Tryweryn, HPP, Teeside, Cardif, Lee Valley, washburn etc. Bala Mill is a 2 with release as is, mile end mill, ironbridge, Matlock, Shepperton, etc Stone, Duck Mill, Cardington, Darley Abbey, Oughtibridge, Wagon lane, Howsham etc moving water with some speed and waves would be 3's and 4's And 4's can be on a pond if need be. . Places like Llandysul top are 2's and if the bottom section is included Top tier.

Points are easy, Last years best 5 settle your starting bib for the season, Tier 1 gets 1000 point, tier 2 gets 500 points and tier 3 gets 250 points for wins and scale down the positions as now. Paddlers enter any race and collect points accordingly. You could add that if you are paddling below your ranking point then you must judge but it's half price to enter and you get no points, unless you elect for to race for points because you need them.

The possibilities based around the ranking of a venue rather than a paddlers are enormous and could help events to sell out, have enough judges and remove the bottleneck by making more races available.

[BaldockBabe]

Ranking venues is actually pretty straightforward. We would reach consensus pretty quickly save for a couple of venues. Tully is top level,

I think you underestimate the ability to rank venues. I would argue that Tully is not top level unless the water levels are high, in low water it would move down the ranking some way. Thus, do you rank on "average" level for the time of year, or on the level on the day. What if you travel to Tully thinking you would be racing for 1000 points but it was a 500 point day?

How would you rank Shepperton which can be a stonking venue when the water is running but a flat lake when the weir is closed? Or how about Orton Mere which can again be flat but can be very tricky when the water is running or when the boils are having a day out.

[davebrads]

As far as I can see the "ranking races" idea is portable points+

The + stands for even more problems. Now anybody can enter any event - how are you going to ensure that everyone gets a fair chance of getting an entry? What if the top races get filled with keen div 1s and 2s so that Prem racers can't get a race? At least under portable points the host division had priority and we retained some kind of control.

I think I understand the thinking that has prompted the desire to find another way of running our sport. Some people think that the divisional system stands in the way of allowing talented and ambitious paddlers from racing on decent water - which it does. However it isn't usually for very long, if someone is ambitious enough they can make div 1 in a season. The benefit of the divisional system is that most people get to race against their peers resulting in good competition and motivation to continue to race, and it has worked very well for a long time.

Last year the lack of capacity in division 1 races was a real problem, and I expect that we may have lost some people permanently from our sport as a result - I certainly know of some older paddlers who have given up, perhaps permanently, and there may be some younger paddlers too. This is a far more serious issue than trying to accelerate a few paddlers up the tree, and should be the real focus of our attention. I don't think the end of season promotions/demotions have gone anywhere near far enough, we will soon see.