Restructuring the divisions

[davebrads]

We have a serious problem with division 1, is too big, there is no way that everyone that wants to race in that division can get an entry to the majority of races. Personally I can't see any way of solving this problem that hasn't got serious drawbacks. We therefore need to reduced the size of the division.

Unlike some I am a firm believer in the divisional system as a way of ensuring quality competition, I just think it needs some maintenance. I hope that those with other opinions will join the debate on here so that everyone has the chance to make their own mind up.

This is what I would propose to do:

Promote some division 1 paddlers to Prem at the end of the season. I am thinking about 30 altogether, we also mustn't undermine the quality of the premier division.
Demote some division 1 paddlers to division 2. This might mean increasing the target which has been nominally set at 1000 points for the past few years.
Especially demote a good percentage of the C1W. It has been far too easy for them to get to division 1 and many are leagues behind the other classes in the division. This also applies to the C2s, though on the whole the weaker crews stop racing once they get to division 1 so in that case it is almost self selecting.
Slow down promotion of C1 and C2 by tinkering with the percentages/points system.

I haven't got much further with my thoughts than that, I was intending to sit down and come up with some figures once I had got the HPP race behind me.

[rose]

I think they should introduce another division, the present system is top heavy; i think we need three divisions made up of the current division one and prem.

[NotNowKato!]

Not sure that demoting a number of the C1W is going to have much effect, regardless of how easy it is to achieve promotion from Div 2. One look at the rankings list shows that the majority of Div 1 competitors are K1M. If my maths is correct they make up over 50% of the division.

Now if you look at the competitors across all solo classes that have raced this year (i.e the ones showing points for this season), the split is still approx 50% for K1M and 50% for all the other classes

[boatmum]

Some thoughts - and I am fully aware there are others far more qualified than I am to take a view

In order to keep a divisional system operating I think the pyramid system works best - so more paddlers in the lower divisions working their way up with an assumed drop off in participation as other interests take over, it gets more competitive, more expensive and so on

Taking numbers from the current rankings, I've had a quick back of an envelope calculation and currently we have a spread over the divisions as follows (numbers rounded up and down as appropriate):

K1 W - prem 16%, Div 1 20%, Div 2 28%, Div 3 36% - total numbers 335

K1 M - prem 13%, Div 1 22%, Div 2 28%, Div 3 37% - total numbers 647

C1 M - prem 39%, Div 1 24% DIv 2 54%, Div 3 24% - total numbers 180

C1 W - prem 22%, Div 1 28%, Div 2 24%, Div 3 34% - total numbers 108


It would seem to me it might be sensible to change the percentages of the pyramid levels. Given there is now the opportunity for paddlers to paddle-up lowering numbers in the higher divisions wouldn't be such an issue as those paddlers able to "prove" themselves in a higher division event need not "worry" for want of a better word, about being held back. Decisions at the end of the season will be tougher ones though to maintain a ratio.

So maybe a percentage split something along the lines of:

prem - top 10%, Div 1 15% Div 2 25% and Div 3 50%

Overall this would give (on current numbers)

prem 127 paddlers total as opposed to currently 194 - 35% decrease

Div 1 191 total as opposed to currently 283 - 33% decrease

Div 2 318 total as opposed to 357 currently - 11% decrease

Div 3 635 as opposed to 436 currently - 45% increase

With 35 Div 3 races available across the Uk I think there is enough opportunity to satisfy the increased demand for div 3 races and may even be helpful in terms of helping clubs make a bit of a financial surplus at race?

Just thoughts

[boatmum]

The bit I neglected to put on the end of the last post was - promotional points would need to be adjusted in the divisions to help maintain the division membership ratios.

Given the nature of slalom this might be a useful step in any case. It might help paddlers develop higher performance consistency in races in their host division before moving to the next.

[Dee]

I suspect that demoting half the div 1s in this way will mean a dramatic loss of paddlers to slalom. I'd expect to see 80% of those paddlers affected by the restructuring just walk away. So rather than restructuring this would turn out to be reduction of the total numbers of slalomists

A dramatic improvement in the quality of div 2 races might change this a bit but I don't believe this is achievable within the time scales.

[boatmum]

Well its not half, its a third and it would really depend on

a) how it is presented - sports in general not being famous for how they communicate things so care would be needed with the pros as well as the cons being high lighted - we are very good at the cons

b) I think if something like this means more certainty about race participation for both paddlers and organisers and the races can be set at an appropriate standard paddlers will still want to race.

Why would 80% walk away? Sport is not only about attainment it should be about development too. - if we are sending out messages that attainment is everything then I believe we loose something valuable in sport.

[BaldockBabe]

Why would 80% walk away? Sport is not only about attainment it should be about development too. - if we are sending out messages that attainment is everything then I believe we loose something valuable in sport.

I gave up C1w when I was demoted to Div2 as I had no interest in paddling Div2 courses. I may not be quick but I am more than capable of managing Div1 water.

[boatmum]

I understand that, and that's the other side of any restructure I guess. You cant just change the number of paddlers in each division - you have to make sure that the water and/or the courses set are of a suitable standard. Im not or ever have been a slalom paddler but I would have thought it was possible to set tough courses even where the water might not be as challenging. So courses can be tough because of the nature of the water or challenging because of the technical requirement. A mixture of both I would think would be fantastic development for paddlers wanting to progress.

I suppose the question is, as a sport do we push paddlers through the divisions as fast as possible or help them develop as paddlers by providing races at a variety of venues and on courses that challenge their skills?

My understanding is a race venue is deemed to be of a certain standard divisionally, because of the water challenge - I get that, but maybe there is an argument for saying the technical difficulty of the course set can also determine the divisional level. Who sets the standards bar for that is of course another matter. Im just trying to look at this debate from a different angle as this is something that comes up a lot and as yet we have not found any way forward with it.

[Dee]

Well its not half, its a third and it would really depend on .....

But first you plan to demote 67 from prem. I am assuming they will take 67 of your 191 places leaving 124 places to be shared between the original 283 div 1 paddlers thus demoting 159, slightly over half. Or have I read your figures wrongly?

That aside, a lot of lower end div 1 paddlers are there because they are capable but slow. However challenging you make the course I think a lot will go simply because they like the bigger water

[boatmum]

ok fair comment but any chance of debate and more suggestions? Not being funny but these threads often feel like any kind of suggestion that is different is immediately shot down but no alternative is put forward and that kills the discussion.

If this issue is a real problem, and clearly given the number of times it has been raised it is, then it needs all sorts of ideas to be put forward from a lot of different people to get to something that works. Clearly any change wont work for everyone but if it does for the majority then it is probably worth a try,

As I said at the start, my suggestion was just a thought to try to start looking at the issue in a different way. I was hoping people might look at say different percentages or as someone else suggested what happens if you slot in another division?

I also think it would be a good idea if a carefully structured survey could be sent to all paddlers to find out what their priorities are.

Be worth remembering though that surveys automatically raise expectation so something would have to be done with the survey results.

[djberriman]

I may be wrong but I believe we used to have an extra division in the past so it's clearly possible. If we did add an extra division in then we'd have to review courses set and venues used for all divisions. The major problem (other than god knows how many man hours spent doing this and rewriting the rule book) would be finding volunteers and venues for all the new races, and good enough venues for the other races once reviewed.

Getting rid of divisions wouldn't solve it, if anything it would probably make it worse (as anyone could enter anything).

Sadly we seem to be being affected by a lack of suitable venues at a cost we can afford, a lack of water time at the venues we can use and a lack of volunteers to run races.

[Dee]

Some random ideas:

Push a few paddlers from div 1 to prem.

Increase entry costs for prem (they race at more expensive venues but currently pay the same as div 1s)

Slow down promotion into div 1 (again)

Extend the season to allow races in Feb (sites reliant on rainfall would have more opportunities to run races)

Employ someone to organise races. Increase entry costs to cover this

Allow extra races to be added during the year at, say, 4 weeks notice

[SilverSurfer]

Clearly there is an issue, if only on the basis that not all Division 1 paddlers can get an entry. But then again, quite often paddlers on the waiting list get a late entry when other paddlers withdraw their original entry.

Unfortunately, there is now a culture of getting to the Premier Division ASAP, driven by acceptance onto talent programmes and hitting artificial targets. I don't think this is healthy for the sport, and whilst the number of paddlers are higher in both Division 1 and Premier Division, I don't think this is reflected in the depth of quality in those divisions.

The divisional system isn't broken, but probably needs tweaking. However, I don't think you can simply change the number of paddlers in isolation, and assume everything will be fixed - it won't. Race venues, cost, number of races, course setting, paddle-up, talent programmes etc all have to be taken in consideration.

Whilst this forum is good for prompting new ideas, and generating discussion, its not the right forum for actually resolving a problem - that isn't meant as a criticism to those who contribute on this forum. Those with a genuine interest in this issue, armed with facts and figures should meet up and thrash out a workable solution, and then put that proposal to the wider community - otherswise nothing will change. In the good old days before social media, that's what we used to do.

[jjayes]

Dave said at the start of this debate that "We have a serious problem with division 1, is too big, there is no way that everyone that wants to race in that division can get an entry to the majority of races."

It seems what Dave stated is certainly true.

One answer is to restrict the number of paddlers in division one and premier to a number that the organisers can cope with if every body in that division wants to race.

On the question of the divisions overall competitive quality there are obviously some serious issues. I realise this is only a snap shot and more events need to be taken into account but with just a quick look at last weeks premier event at Lee Valley it can be seen how quickly performance tails off as you look down the result sheets.

http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/results/09 ... alleyP.pdf

The gaps between the first place and the 20th place in
C1 men was 20 seconds,
LK1 26 seconds for top 20,
MK1 15 seconds for top 20,
C1 Ladies 41 second for only the top 10.

It may well be a idea to keep this in mind as numbers in different premier or possibly Div 1 classes are established as it appears many are struggling on Premier level courses from a competitive point of view.

This also need to be balanced with the needs of those attending the events for other reasons than purely performance objectives. But if numbers need to restricted so all in a division can race if they want, a way would seem to be to lower the numbers in some divisions.

Other option...

To have more events for those divisions which in obviously fraught with even greater problems.

Keeping the number of races the same and restricting the number of races a paddler is able to attend in a season along with the number of races that are counted for ranking purposes.

More certainly need to be done by the sport as a whole to develop better "strength in depth" at all levels and not just for the sake of the success of the divisional structure, but this of more of a recruitment, talent I.D. and coaching issue.