Restructuring the divisions

[davebrads]

I don't think we actually need more races at all, we just need to balance things up a bit. Division 1 races are mostly oversubscribed, some division 2 races get full but not all by any means, and division 3 and 4 can't stand on their own as the entries are paltry. One solution is to allow everyone to enter any race they want, but then you are going to run into exactly the same problems we have now in division 1 only worse, and you are going to have to come up with some basis of selecting the entries, maybe a lottery like the London marathon, with preferential treatment for certain athletes? I wouldn't want to be the organiser trying to admister that! I believe the current divisional ranking system offers the best solution to allocating racing slots, we just need to get it back under control.

he pyramid structure is often mentioned, but that only applies to the total number of paddlers in a division, not the number of paddlers racing at a particular race, ideally we would want the same number of paddlers racing at every event every weekend. The difference between divisions is that as a general rule the higher you go the more committed the paddlers are and the more races they will want to do. If we make it harder to make it out of division 2 that will increase the quality and quantity of paddlers racing each weekend, and running division 2 races on harder courses will become more viable. If we extend this to division 3 the same will happen there. We should be aiming to have division 3 events with well over 100 entries and then these can be run on some of the division 2 courses as stand alone events.

The divisional structure has been eroded over the years by several factors. The most obvious is a decrease in paddlers, but also initiatives have been introduced aimed to accelerate promotion, and probably having the greatest effect is that there are a lot more division 2 races as races that once would have been division 3 have become 2/3 races to maintain their viability. We should take the current increase in paddlers to be an opportunity to rebuild the divisional structure properly and strengthen the lower divisions. After all I got promoted out of division 3 in C2 racing at HPP, and in those days C2 was a standalone class in Prem so we had another two promotions to go to get there, if we got back to that level of strength then I am sure that there won't be any need for people to see demotion as a reason to pack in the sport.

[BaldockBabe]

I have received an email from someone who does not want to post on the boards themselves but is following the discussion and asks:

I wonder if anyone has considered running Div 1 events along the lines of international event structure? i.e. Preliminary run - where you could have far more entries; Semi-final with far fewer; Final - top ten.

Has anyone? Would it work? I think we'd need to change the rule book.

International events don't work that way. They have two heats runs (though the top x get one run and an automatic pass to the semis), then semi and final. So that would actually take more time rather than less.

The McConkey is run with this structure. The issue is that the McConkey is a single event over one weekend (one set of points available), with prem heats on the Sat and div 1/ semi-final/ finals on the Sunday.

[BaldockBabe]

Why is the season limited from March to October; what is wrong with November, December, January, February?

It is too fecking cold to sit on a riverbank judging/ timing/ coaching/ waiting to paddle in March and October let alone in November - February!!!

And it's not too cold when it's snowing in May

It's not cold in Malaysia Perhaps we would have the Nov - Feb races in the UAE, Brazil, Oz, Nz etc

[Dee]

It is too fecking cold to sit on a riverbank judging/ timing/ coaching/ waiting to paddle in March and October let alone in November - February!!!

And it's not too cold when it's snowing in May

It's not cold in Malaysia Perhaps we would have the Nov - Feb races in the UAE, Brazil, Oz, Nz etc

Yup, sounds great to me.

[jjayes]

[quote] Dave Brad....As I understand it we probably won't have a race on Town Falls again because of safety concerns, but I am reasonably sure that Llangollen Town Council would have us back in a flash if we could find a way around it./quote]

I think that the Town falls is a great site that has not been used because of overly exaggerated safety fears. There is one spot on the main town falls drop about 50 meter upstream from the bridge that can be problematic at certain water levels if a paddler goes straight down the middle. The way around it is to go down either side of the main drop and not down the middle. Gates need to avoid being in centre of the drop. I think with the right gate sequence in place that div1 and rem paddlers would be able to find there way down safely. Every day the Town falls are run succesfully by much lower standard of paddler than either div 1 or premier.

There are other natural and artificial courses that have had much greater problems and have had major accidents that are still used for slalom events. Because a river has natural rocks and other obsticals where if a paddler does not take them into consideration and avoid them during their run they have problem this is no reason not to hold a race on that river. It is a matter of setting a appropriate course and using a rapid that is appropriate for the level of the division racing.

[Mike Mitchell]

Don't decrease Div 1 or you will get paddler giving up. They don't want to race in Div 2 its a grate Division full of kids and the water is easy. I would just leave div 2 as it is. We just need to get more paddlers int Div 3/4

So hear is an option /proposal.

If a race is restricted to 150 entries but the organiser gets 250 entering, including paddle ups, promotes and potable points.

So Saturday race only the bottom 150 ranked paddlers get to race and practice. Points are awarded from 800 for 1st place down.

Sunday. The top 100 paddlers that didn't get a race on the Saturday race and are joined by the top 50 finishers from Saturdays race. Harder course and 1 practice run. Ranking points are awarded from 1000 for 1st place.

Summery. If the race can cope with the entry numbers then it will just be run as a normal double event. This is only an example of number, there could be more or less entries. Could also do all the practice on the Sat with a smaller qualifying event and then a bigger event on the Sunday. Overall there would less point awarded to harder to get to prem, but on the other hand everyone could get to race.

Numbers in each class will have to be split by the nearest percentage of entries.
The top 100 ranked paddlers could be taken from the end of year ranking list or the current season rankings.

[Mike Mitchell]

There seams to be several discussions going on hear.

I agree with JJ. We should bring back events like Llangollen. I recon I raced there for at lest 27 years, in Div1, Prem and British Open. With not a singe incident. Swam the length of it when I changed to C2. Have we all got soft.

If we hold another div 1 at Tully and Llandysul, thats some 600 miles each way from Lee valley.

Wouldn't it be better and warmer to hold Two events over a Two week holiday somewhere in the Alps.
These events could be held over 3 days each and could be mid week, if run in the Summer holidays.
Training camps could also be set up ??? Run by parents at no profit or levy.

Otherwise we need to start battling to get are artificial sites back from the rafters.

[davebrads]

There seams to be several discussions going on hear.

I agree with JJ. We should bring back events like Llangollen. I recon I raced there for at lest 27 years, in Div1, Prem and British Open. With not a singe incident. Swam the length of it when I changed to C2. Have we all got soft.

It's all linked, open discussion is fine.

I don't know the details of why it was decided Town Falls wasn't safe but there were two similar incidents several years apart where a boat was pinned in the middle of the falls and no way of getting to the paddler. In the second case the paddler injured her legs quite badly but it could have been worse. Plastic boats don't get pinned and it might be possible that modern slalom boats won't, but I'm not volunteering to test it. JJ says the slot can be avoided by gate placement, but the reason Town Falls is hard is that it is easy to be drawn into the slot if you misjudge the line. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a race back on the Town but these safety concerns must be addressed first.

I swam it all from a C2 too ☺, my partner abandoned me to look after the boat as he swam for the side.

[jjayes]

There seams to be several discussions going on hear.

I agree with JJ. We should bring back events like Llangollen. I recon I raced there for at lest 27 years, in Div1, Prem and British Open. With not a singe incident. Swam the length of it when I changed to C2. Have we all got soft.

It's all linked, open discussion is fine.

I don't know the details of why it was decided Town Falls wasn't safe but there were two similar incidents several years apart where a boat was pinned in the middle of the falls and no way of getting to the paddler. In the second case the paddler injured her legs quite badly but it could have been worse. Plastic boats don't get pinned and it might be possible that modern slalom boats won't, but I'm not volunteering to test it. JJ says the slot can be avoided by gate placement, but the reason Town Falls is hard is that it is easy to be drawn into the slot if you misjudge the line. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a race back on the Town but these safety concerns must be addressed first.

I swam it all from a C2 too ☺, my partner abandoned me to look after the boat as he swam for the side.

I believe the slot on the town falls could be fixed very easily by filling it in with a larger slab rock. The cost of doing so would be minimal and permission easily gained on safety grounds.

I think the ease of which a event can be run on some of the new artificial races was also a major factor in cancelling the Llangollen and other event venues throughout the country. These decisions are now coming back to bite as the costs incurred of using artificial sites that have been given away to private profit making enterprises is becoming too expensive for slalom events to be viable. This was inevitable and it surprises me that nobody in the sports management seemed to anticipate this. It seems that slalom has some how lost a grip on venues that were built specifically for it. The best rafting businesses in the world could never have afforded the capital to build a artificial course from the own financies but many now have just that. It would be good to know the stories behind how this has come about and what financial deals were made? Slalom for now has simply become another just another customer until it can no longer afford to pay.

After the tragic events at Grandtully and many accident throughout previous and followings years I did have lengthy conversations with both the chief exec of the SCA and the BCU slalom committee chair person to do something to make the bottom rock safer and no action was ever taken, partly on the ground that they felt if they changed something they could somehow be liable if there were further accidents. What a mad world we live in where health and safety laws prevent action to make things safer! If there are further problems I think anybody involved in either organising or sanctioning a event could possibly be liable for not doing something to make it safer?

[JimW]

Pretty common statement is that if div 1 gets shrunk by demotion the demoted paddlers will give up racing.

What do the paddlers say?

Have we really raised a generation that quit at the first setback?

I suggested before that if there is a problem with the numbers, it is likely to be down to in-season promotion. Obviously this was devised to provide a fast track for truly talented paddlers, but is it enabling too many quite good paddlers, perhaps only good on some types of course and not others, to get too far?
Can we come up with a revised system that sorts out the exceptional paddlers?

What if in season points based promotion goes out, and only paddle ups are counted towards in season promotion, perhaps with a higher bar than 40%, or more than 3 required, and don't add to seasonal points. I'm thinking that if done right only paddlers who think (on their coaches advice I hope) that they can get the PU will bother entering as PU because it will do nothing for their end of season points. Then we can apply whatever method seems sensible to use the seasonal points for promotion and demotion to achieve the right balance for race sizes.

But we need to decide if we can risk losing demotees, and/or find out how likely that is.

[John Sturgess]

That might be true if, as you imply, the paddlers who come up to Div 1 are not as good as the paddlers who are already there. But the evidence contradicts that: there is an overlap of c. 30%.
The paddle-up rules require a paddler to beat 40% of the division they are trying to get into three times in order to get promoted. If we were to specify that in order to stay in Division 1 paddlers had to score above 400 three times, c. a third of Div 1 would be demoted. A significant number do not get 400 pts even once in a season.
I am not saying that those lower Div 1 paddlers should be demoted - they are in the main well able to handle the water - but paddlers who are better than them should be promoted, and a way found to accommodate the numbers.
So as I have said before: the problem is not the size of Div 1 - it is the lack of sufficient race-slots on rough water to accommodate those who are capable of racing on Div 1 standard water, and wish to do so. From observations at the Washburn, Grandtully, and the Tee Barrage I would say that this is 50 - 60% of Div 2.

[James Hastings]

Sorry JJ but I totally disagree with 'sanitising' natural rivers just to make them 'safe' for slalom. The vast majority of the people that run the Dee and Town Falls are recreational river runners during the course of a year and part of the experience of running Town Falls is avoiding the slot or working out how to deal with it if you can't. Why should recreational paddlers suffer a 'sanitised' version of the Falls to accommodate a once a year slalom?

If slalomers are not prepared to accept the risk, then they shouldn't be using the site.

[djberriman]

Just had a thought due to the large right sizing done by the committee last year there doesn't appear to be an issue this year so far. Every Div 1 event has had paddle ups which means no event was actually full (at least until after the closing date). If there is any issue with single division events being declared full early then it must be due to a number of people 'booking' places and then canceling.

[Dee]

Just had a thought due to the large right sizing done by the committee last year there doesn't appear to be an issue this year so far. Every Div 1 event has had paddle ups which means no event was actually full (at least until after the closing date). If there is any issue with single division events being declared full early then it must be due to a number of people 'booking' places and then canceling.

As I've stated before, panic "buying" is rife.

Full at Sheppy without paddle ups, but to be fair were running as a div 1/2. As a div 1 only we probably still would have been full without paddle ups, but we only have a 150 limit, which is lower than the norm (the nature of a weir course means we need to allow more time between paddlers and can't start particularly early plus it gets dark early in March).

[davebrads]

Just had a thought due to the large right sizing done by the committee last year there doesn't appear to be an issue this year so far. Every Div 1 event has had paddle ups which means no event was actually full (at least until after the closing date). If there is any issue with single division events being declared full early then it must be due to a number of people 'booking' places and then canceling.

I didn't think that any more paddlers got demoted out of division 1 than usual, the cut-off was 1,000 points for K1M which has been the general rule. As Dee says, Shepperton waw full with no paddle-ups. Llandysul and Grandtully are at the extreme ends of the country and always have less entries. My event is full with no paddle-ups, the Paul McConkey had 6 division 1 places left as of the beginning of April, and Washburn is full already.