UK 19.8 - Safety Rule - Comment?

[Nigel]

For me its a moral obligation, yes we may be rival competitors, but we are also all paddlers, to stop and wait for a couple more is nothing to ask; and with the last boat/crew/team down then we can all get off, take in the prize giving and some beers to finish, is it really that difficult?
Nigel

[HPPaddle]

For younger paddlers, when people don't always come down in the correct bib order, it can be really difficult to know when you are free to get off, so any decision to disqualify needs to be carefully taken in context. Especially where there are very few boats in any one class it isn't always easy to figure out. At a recent event a high bib number came down out of order causing lots of confusion about when anyone could get off. Just a bit of common sense needed when enforcing.

[djberriman]

How does that confuse? It's the next 2 paddlers (to cross the finish line) regardless of order.

The problem is without the threat of disqualification paddlers simply ignore the rule even at Div 1 level.

[JimW]

How does that confuse? It's the next 2 paddlers (to cross the finish line) regardless of order.

The problem is without the threat of disqualification paddlers simply ignore the rule even at Div 1 level.

It can.

At some events you can't see the finish line properly from the waiting area, at others the finish area is next to warm up, or doesn't get cleared for other reasons.
I was at an event recently where an apparently out of order paddler came down after me and got straight off the water - there might be a good reason for this, he might have been one of the orgsanisers needing to get back to a job but I certainly didn't get the memo and very nearly got off leaving only one other paddler on the water - just counting 2 more boats over the finish line isn't enough, you have to also check that each other are getting off in the right order.

Even with the system I was trying to run at Pinkston to try to keep wamring up paddlers clear of the 2 waiting paddlers there were times when we had to call back warming up paddlers who had not only crossed into the waiting zone, but had managed to get upstream of the finish albeit on the opposite side of the basin. Our pre-strarters and finishers did very well to keep track of everyone! And there was the occasion that the 2 safety boats, having paddled up past finish to rescue a swimmer, instead of waiting in the huge eddy for the next paddler to pass, cut across in front of them - it didn't affect the run but was an unnecessary risk!

But I don't think we should relax the rule, if anything we shout more about it.

I would prefer if instead of reporting them to control, the finisher could stop people forgetting to do their stint and tell them to get back on to avoid being disqualified - the problem of course being that the finisher has a more critical job to concentrate on.

[the_c1_fish]

As a person who is very often on the finish line I can quite easily say that we are not able to tell the paddler to get back on the water as most of the time they have just paddled straight past the finisher at full speed.

In the higher Divisions such as Prem and Division 1 the paddlers should know the rules that majority of the time the paddler gets off early is because they have had a bad run and are swearing and throwing paddles around. Now as entertaining as this is to watch why should they be told to put their dummy back in and get back on the water. They know the rules and should follow them and should be disqualified if the Jury decide that the paddler didn't have a legitimate reason to get off early, because sometimes mistakes are made.

Lower down in the divisions is more of a learning scale for paddlers and the rules I will admit but I feel the finisher should still report them to control for the paddler to talk to the Jury members so they can be made aware of the rules they have broken and the importance of the rule and why the rule exists. In some circumstances yes the finisher may be able to discuss this with the paddler but this isnt the role of the finish judge it is the role of the Jury members. Also reporting this to control allows them to keep track of "repeat offenders" - something which is done at Premier and Division 1 races.

Just out of interest what are peoples views on "Repeat Offenders". For example a paddler is repeatedly breaking a rule, say not staying on at finish and has repeatedly been disqualified in a series of races. Should they have a ban and be disqualified from a future race in the season? Is this to harsh? Or is there something better to do?

[the_c1_fish]

Also I don't see how it is confusing at all to tell if 2 people have come down after you? The next paddlers would usually come down 1 minute after you Give or take 15 seconds either way. You can see the paddler coming down the river after you have finished so it's a matter of counting 1 new person and then another and then getting off the water.

[lesf]

There seems to be a problem with the consistency of how this rule is being enforced.

At the HPP Div 1 in September, 2 paddlers were disqualified. Two weeks later I believe a number of paddlers were reported by finish and safety - but no disqualifications. If we are not enforcing this at the top level what message does that send to the lower divisions?

Also ignorance of the rules doesn't help you when you protests a penalty, so why should it in this case? (Perhaps I'll have to protest to get a touch removed as I'd forgotten about that rule!)

[djberriman]

Perhaps a points reduction per offence after being offcially warned which is repeated per offence until a period of time has passed when no more offences have been reported. As points are the only things some paddlers seem to prize I'm sure this will have an effect.

For those who just won't follow the rules then yes I'd suggest they receive an outright ban for a number of events.

Polo bans players for breaking the rules so I'd don't see why slalom can't.

[Dee]

My thoughts:

Division 3/4 - paddlers should be gently warned but disqualified for a repeat offence
Div 2 - immediate disqualification for run
Div 1/P - immediate disqualification for whole race

Rule must be applied to official practice as well as competitive runs

My reasoning:
- We have to take this seriously as it's about safety!
- lower divisions genuinely don't know the rules, further no-one really expects a novice div 4 paddler to effect a competent rescue, so throw bags, additional cover etc are usually available and the water levels are less taxing and therefore less life threatening. However paddlers do need to be learning the correct behaviour
- div 2s should know the rules, but are still learning. Let's not ruin their whole day, but we do need to bridge the gap between 3/4 and prem/1. Div 2s should have more paddling skills and are more likely to be capable of assisting in a rescue. They are more likely to be truly part of safety cover.
- P/1s really should know what they are doing. They are more likely to be truly expected to perform the rescue. The water levels are more threatening so more important that rescuers are in place. However single run disqualification has no impact on those who are throwing a tantrum following a bad run. This breach of the rules is serious. We need to reflect that in the punishment

[JimW]

Polo bans players for breaking the rules so I'd don't see why slalom can't.

Most of the things polo players can get banned for are deliberately and immediately dangerous to another player, that said arguing with the ref repeatedly will also do it.
I think our 2 most likely players to get carded are doing the ref course on Saturday ready for the league kicking off on Sunday, hopefully it will help keep the red mists at bay, it would be embarrassing to lose a player in the first tournament in our new division, especially if the player is one of our refs.

Anyway doesn't slalom have this kind of option under C40.2? It is unclear whether it is specifically about tantrums/abusive behaviour or whether it can be interpreted that failure to follow the safety rule causes disruption to the competition?
Does the committee have disciplinary guidelines to use if a paddler is referred under C40.2 or is it free to determine sanctions on a case by case basis?

It really should never come to that, paddlers need to respect each others safety, none of us are bombproof and one day it might be us needing the rescue.

[WindsorCC]

I agree with Dee, for lower divisions it's about learning good behaviour, middle divisions it's a real safety issue, and top divisions need to set a good example/still do the job even if there is official safety, or (and I don't think this is the case generally) feel they shouldn't need to do it.

I expect the vast majority of offenders at middle/top divisions are just forgetting/getting swept up in the excitement, but there should be some form of penalty as a reminder. As has been mentioned, it needs to be consistent and fair to all, no matter who spots the infraction, who's on finish, who's on the jury, who the paddler is.

It feels like DQ for a first offence is severe, but it's a safety issue, and could contribute to a dangerous situation. Paddlers get DQ'd for missing their start, forgetting bibs, unsafe PFDs/helmets, unsafe/underweight boats,. It's all part of race day, so parents, coaches etc should be making it habit right from lower divisions.

So I'd agree with warnings then DQ for 3/4, single run DQ for Div 2, and event DQ for 1/P, provided that it's applied consistently, and it's clear to finish (who lets not forget, have a lot on their plate already) when someone has 'left' the finish area (as you know Dee, tricky for somewhere like Shepperton where it's very open at finish and difficult to see round the corner behind you).

Perhaps we need to set a defined small area next to the bank near finish where paddlers need to wait as safety? It'll interfere with a warm-down, but only for five minutes at most, and it'll be clear for all who's safety. Not sure how practical that is all all events?

Paul.