Entry Fees

[djberriman]

Could someone confirm my thinking is correct.

If someone enters a Double Div 2 at a Div 2/3 the fee is £17.
If they enter 2 classes at a Double Div 2/3 the fee is the two double fees less £3.

Single Entries (one day)
====================

K1M in Div 2 £10.50, C1M in Div 2 £10.50, Total £21, less £3 MCD = £18.
K1M in Div 2 £10.50, C1M in Div 3 £8, Total £18.50, less £3 MCD = £15.50.
K1M in Div 3 £8, C1M in Div 3 £8, Total £16, less £3 MCD = £13.

Double Entries (both days)
=======================
K1M in Div 2 £17, C1M in Div 2 £17, Total £34, less £3 MCD = £31.
K1M in Div 2 £17, C1M in Div 3 £13, Total £30, less £3 MCD = £27.
K1M in Div 3 £13, C1M in Div 3 £13, Total £26, less £3 MCD = £23.

I've had 6 MCD entries so far for Howsham and only 2 have the correct amount (some taking no discount and others taking double discount).

Perhaps it somehow needs making clearer on the entry fee sheet. Causes a lot of extra work!

Thanks
Duncan

[paddlerparent]

Why not propose to cancel the discount for more than one class, then only need to worry about both days

[JimW]

Correct.

It is easy to forget about MCD - I have!

It is explained, but I think a lot of people struggle to read written explanations about numbers:

At double events, you deduct a discount of £3.00 in the same way, from the second and subsequent standard entry fees.

The entry fee for a double event is already discounted by more than the MCD which is why you don't get MCD for each day, the second day already has a substantial discount!

It isn't exactly crystal clear as quoted, and C2's are even more complex because only 1 paddler is allowed to claim the multiple class discount....

Have you had an envelope yet with entries for several paddlers where some are entering multiple classes?
It didn't happen to me, but I can foresee someone getting an entry for several paddlers doing a mixture of K1M, C1M, K1W and C1W where the parent has misunderstood and taken the MCD off all but one entry....
And watch out for envelopes where there are multiple paddlers in different classes, but each only entering 1 class....

[Dee]

Multiclass discount was created to encourage paddlers to try a new class but does it work?

Looking at entries for Sheppy 3/4 (of which there are surprisingly few at the moment - another issue!) paddlers are only entering one class as far as I can see.

[JimW]

At a div 3 you might find some paddlers enter a second class in div 4 on the day, particularly those less confident in their second class who might want to see the course before they decide. Because we were accepting entries for div 2 & 3 on the day, we had some paddlers doing this the other day. Come to think of it, I did it myself at HPP - I took my C1 down in case I felt happy enough with the course to enter. I didn't in the end, I was being challenged enough in K1 and had only been promoted in C1 the week before so it would have been quite a step up - Abefeldy to HPP in one week

[CeeBee]

The Double Entry fee is not double the Single entry fee but is set at about 1.6 x the single fee so you get a 40% discount on your second entry. (I have shown the Race 2 fee below by taking the Double Fee less the single race fee i.e. Race 1).

Race 1 Race 2 Double Fee
Premier and Div 1 £19.25 £11.75 £31.00
Division 2 £10.50 £6.50 £17.00
Division 3 £8.00 £5.00 £13.00
Division 4 £5.00 £3.00 £8.00

If you enter a Double Div 1, you pay the double entry fee and therefore get the reduced price for the second race.

However, if you enter a Prem Race as paddle up one day and a Div 1 the following day, you pay for 2 single race fees. This seems inequitable , particularly under portable points.

For consistency, if you are paddling in 2 races on the same weekend, the second race should get the 40% discount i.e. you pay the Race 1 fee for the first race and the Race 2 fee for the second race.

To me, this second race fee should also apply to anyone doing additional classes and we could merge this with the multi class discount and have 1 set of fees set as First Race, Extra Races. This may make it easier for those entering and for organisers. If you are racing across more than 1 Division, the Race 1 fee would apply to the highest Division and the Race 2 fee to the lower Division. So, we would publish the fees with no mention of double fees but just as Race 1 , Race 2+


I think it is good to encourage paddlers to race in more than 1 class at all levels and so would support paddlers paying the Race 2 fee for additional entries.

[JimW]

That's entirely sensible, worth a motion for the ACM?

Details to be worked out obviously, like most expensive entry will be the full price one (or not)

[Canadian Paddler]

Remebering that multi class discount was intended to encourage people to try another class, that is why it is restricted in the divisions to which it applies. By teh time soemone is in division 1, they do not need encouraging to try another class, they are fairly committed.

The propsal as written will save Mallory Franklin, Jas Royle and Kimberley Woods entry fees, and thet REALLY do not need encouraging to try new classes. Not picking on them, but with their performance at the World Cup, their names are easy to recall.

Not gainsaying the suggestion, just raising some of the points that have been discussed at ACMs.

You will also have to work out how to convince organisers that they should accept less entry fees for the same entries. . . . and teh ACM is principally organisers, so please work out the arguments carefully

Finally

THANK YOU!!! It is good to see thoughts on teh future of teh sport, and ACM motions considered early, not rushed out at the last minute

[CeeBee]

Apart from events which are full, encouraging paddlers to do more events with the 2nd event at a lower cost will bring in more money to the event so will not have a negative impact on the event at all.

At Div 1 and Prem, the paddler has already paid 45% of the entry fee plus £2 timing and judging fee for their first entry to British Canoeing/SCA/WCA to administer the sport so not sure that another 45% of the same entry fee and a further £2 timing and judging fee is necessary.

My proposal simplifies and amalgamates the multi class discount with the 2nd race discount. This should hopefully be easier for people to follow and so should result in more correct payments being made.

As an organiser, I don't see it having a detrimental effect financially. Having done all the work to get an event up and running , set the course, bought prizes , organised judges etc, the paddlers may as well race as many classes as they want within the paddling limit.

[Dee]

Apart from events which are full......

But Prems and div 1s are often full. So a div 1 paddle up from Prem race on Sat, gets a reduced rate at the full div 1 on Sunday => event makes less money or in some cases looses more money

Another div 1 paddler enters a double div 1 in K1 and C1 and C2 and only pays one full entry with all the others being discounted this would be quite a signicant saving for the paddler but a matching reduction in income for the organising club.

I am not totally convinced that this wouldn't lead to more errors in entry payments. I know you said that the higher price race is race 1, but I can easily see a div 2 paddle up taking their div 2 race as race 1 (after all that is the key race for them) and the paddle up as race 2, however many times you tell people otherwise, but ignore me I'm just an old cynic

Proposed rule change will need some careful framing though and some examples of how it would impact fees.

[Dee]

PS Does anyone have any statistics about how many paddlers have been encouraged to enter a second class because of the discount?