Div 2/3 Vets

[Nick Penfold]

There is a very complicated system around Div 2/3 Vets. They can all race at both Div 2 and Div 3 races, but within Div 2/3 each Vet is designated "2" or "3", and "2s" can only get points at Div 2 races. "3s" can get points from both Div 2 and Div 3 races, but we then treat points from Div 3 races as equal in value to points from Div 2 races, which is a bit iffy. Prem/1 Vets have points from Div 1 races halved.

If Portable Points goes through for next year, the maximum points at a Div 2 race will be 500 and at a Div 3 will be 250. It seems to me that this offers an opportunity to simplify Div 2/3 Vets and give them more opportunity to get points.

All Div 2/3 Vets could be free (like Div 2/3 C2s) to enter both Div 2 and Div 3 races. Some would favour Div 2 races for the higher points and some would prefer to stick to Div 3 races. The only real problem, as I see it, is how we allocate points at a Div 2/3 event. If the "halving" principle is about right, it shouldn't make much difference and I think that should be against the Div 2s.

The system for Vets ought to be what the Vets themselves want (if they can agree!) but it does need to be manageable for the administrators and the people who put the software together.

[harratts]

For the past few seasons I have raced K1 as a Prem. / Div.1 Vet and feel that racing for the full 1,000 points at a Prem. event but only half points at a Div.1 event works fine. This is the same system in operation for C1 Prem. / Div.1 Vet's and C2 Prem. / Div.1 crews.

This season I also registered to be a C1 Div.2 / 3 Vet and could not understand why a different points system was in place. Having to nominate if you are a Div.2 or a Div.3 Vet has contributed to me having to get my ranking points corrected after nearly every race completed so far.

How can Div.3 race points be considered as equivalent to Div.2 race points?

My view is that the Vet's Div.2 / 3 classes should all have their ranking points calculated in the same way as the Prem. / Div.1 and C2 classes currently operate. This would therefore mean that at any Div.2 / 3 event any Div.2 / 3 Vet's would pay a Div.2 race entry fee and compete for Div.2 points against the other Div.2 race competitors.

[WindsorCC]

I'd agree that the P/1 vets system works well and is quite straightforward. Actually I didn't realise the 2/3 system was different!

Nick, regarding your query about how to allocate points at 2/3 races, is there any reason it couldn't be dealt with in the same way as 2/3 C2, so you're effectively entering the higher division, paying the higher entry fee and calculating points against the Div 2 K1M if the event isn't quorate? Again, seems to work ok and is straightforward for C2.

Only downside for both 2/3 Vet and C2 is that there's no reward for paddling a 1/2 race vs a 2/3, with obviously the 1/2 being tougher water. Although it sounds like that's a non-issue next year with single division races.

Paul.

[oldandslow]

As the newby to the Vets Club and haven't yet done my first race, I'm not really qualified to comment - but I will nevertheless! I made the decision to go VET a couple of weeks ago because I have come last (or second to last) at every event this year - which does get a bit demoralising after a while! So from the slowest div 2 K1W I am now div 3 Vet and aiming for 1000 points at Oughtibridge tomorrow. (I didn't!) There is a massive gulf between the bottom of div 2 and the top of div 3 and at all the div 2/3 events I would have been in the top 3 of the div 3s and would have 4941 points as oppose to the 1001 I currently have in div 2. At three of those events I would have been 2nd but by the way the points are calculated would have got 1000 points. Would it be more realistic to get the points for the position you would have come, had you been in that division. So if you would have come 3rd - get the points that the person who was 3rd got.

I entirely agree that getting 1000 points at a div 3 is not the same as getting 1000 points at a div 2 and that is surely a flaw in the system but in k1W halving the points is by no means equivalent. At Cardington (4.9.16) 63 points in div 2 would be 500 points in div 3; at Fairnilee (5.6.16) 71 points in div 2 would be 500 points in div 3.

If I was to enter a div 2/3 then I'd get far more points entering as a div 3. If I had to enter as a div 2, I wouldn't, because I'd be coming last again - which means I wouldn't bother going to div 2/3s. I'd rather go to a div 2/3 and get decent points as a div 3. 250 would be great - it's more than I've managed all year as a div 2! Perhaps at a div 2/3 event (if there are going to be such things in the future) you nominate which you want to enter and if you enter as div 3 and get a max of 250 points but would have got more if you'd entered as a div 2 then tough - that's the risk you took!

Just had another thought! With the proposed portable points - would there be a minimum of 250 points for coming last at a Div2? That would throw a whole new light on my ramblings!

[Nick Penfold]

One way of addressing Oldandslow's point here would simply to split Div 2/3 Vets into two classes, 2 and 3. I don't think that would be popular, because it would limit them to paddling at combined, Div 2 or Div 3 events.

[lesf]

From the feedback I have had around Div 2/3 Vets points under portable points the two main concerns are:

• wanting to be able to paddle at the events I can currently paddle at
• wanting to be able to compare to their nominated Division

However, from the comments what points are awarded doesn't seem to be too important so long as they are comparable to the relevant class.

So what I am proposing is to do here is not change the rules re Div 2/3 Vets points. That means:

• Div 2/3 Vets will still opt to be either Div 2 or Div 3
• At a Div 2 events - Div 2 and Div 3 vets can paddle and get points out comparing to the Div 2 classes
• At Div 3 events (including Div 3/4 events) - Div 2 Vets can paddle but don't earn points, Div 3 vets can paddle and earn points by comparing to the Div 3 classes
• At Div 2 /3 events - Div 2 Vets can paddle and earn points by comparing to the Div 2 classes, Div 3 Vets can paddle and get points by comparing to the Div 3 classes

That's how Div 2/3 Vets points are currently calculated.

The one impact of Portable Points is that the points for Div 2 classes will be out of a maximum of 500, while the points for Div 3 classes will be out of 250. (Therefore a Div 3 Vet paddling at a Div 2 single division event is effectively paddling up and scores out of 500 not 250 - although I can't see anywhere that that has happened this year).

[WindsorCC]

Hi Les, just wondering if there's a reason why it needs to be different to P/1 Vets and C2? So 2/3 vets can enter div 2 races, div 3 races, 2/3 races and 3/4 races, they get full points at div 2 and 2/3, and half-points at div 3 and 3/4. Always calculated against the higher division with their time divided by 1.2 (or whatever it ends up being...)

Doesn't affect me personally so feel free to do what you like , but P/1 Vets/C2 seems like a simple system and is then standardised across the board.

Paul.

[Mike Mitchell]

Ok I paddled in Div3/2 Vets C1 and Div1/P Vets K1 Last year and there was just not enough competition.

So this year I just paddled boat boats in Div1 Masters.

I think Vets needs splitting into separate divisions.
So a Div 2 Vet could then do a Div1 race as a paddle up. Same for the other division Vets.

I personally would like to paddle Div1 Masters and then Enter Prem as a Vet.
This is not allowed at the moment ?

[davieq]

I agree with Mike. I paddled Div 2 K1 Vet for a number of years but went back to Div 2 master this year as there were just not enough Vets at events. I found myself many times right at the end of startlists on my own, not much fun. I think a re-vamp is required.

[djberriman]

Perhaps we should just scrap VETS and allow a masters to opt out of the divisional system instead which is basically what they do. At the moment we then throw them in their own league which adds a whole heap of complexity to the rules and prizes required.

Perhaps for instance they choose a division such as div 1 and race and earn equivalent points in that division and also potentially paddle up if they wish.

They are not counted in the total paddlers for the race but are given points based on where they would have finished if they had been in the divisional system.

They would be ranked in their nominated division based on their points like any other paddler in the division and in that way they could run in division.

No paddling down (why not judge or do the open).

No promotions/demotions.

I could see many masters opting out but then again is that a real issue.

[lesf]

My intention here is not to do anything radical to change Vets classes or their points, simply to ensure the portable points proposal cover the allocation of points in the Vets classes.

If the consensus is that vets points etc needs an overhaul, refreshing, splitting divisions, scrapping or whatever, then (I think) that needs a separate motion to do this rather than being done within the Portable Points proposals.

[Jerry Tracey]

Perhaps we should just scrap VETS

Please leave P/1 Vets alone. What harm are we doing?

[Terryg]

Perhaps we should just scrap VETS

Please leave P/1 Vets alone. What harm are we doing?

Ditto for ⅔ Vets.
Also agree with Les. Only change what has to be changed.
It has been a good year for ⅔ Vets, with several new people taking the purple bib. They have gone Vet because they like the current system more than the divisional system they were previously in.