Promotion is based on getting the following points from 5 races or 3 race wins( or paddle up wins). These are all based on the current 1000 points system.
K1 Men/Women C1 Men/Women C2
Div 3 to Div 2 4150 4000
Div 2 to Div 1 4500 4250 3350
Div 1 to Prem 4750 4650
So, the promotion points for C1 classes are currently less than K1 classes.
Historically, the lower targets in C1 were there to compensate for the effect of very small fields. Today's C1 numbers are much larger and the differential has become an anomaly. The proposal is to equalise points targets for K1 and C1 classes.
If you look at the ranking statistics, a bigger percentage of paddlers are getting promoted in the C1 classes because the promotion points are less. Leaving C2 aside for now, would clubs support a motion to standardise the points so that promotion is the same for K1M,K1W,C1M and C1W?
The motion would be -
B4.3.2 All Kayak and Canadian Singles Events
Numbers in brackets are those to apply if Portable Points is adopted.
Division 3 to Division 2: on gaining 4150 (1060) points from the best five events or achieving 1000 (250) points or more at three events. or a combination of maximum points or achieving the ‘paddle up standard’ in three events.
Division 2 to Division 1: on gaining 4500 (2250) points from the best five events or achieving 1000 (500) points or more at three events or a combination of maximum points or achieving the ‘paddle up standard’ in three events.
Division 1 to Premier: on gaining 4750 points from the best five events or achieving 1000 points or more at three events or a combination of maximum points or achieving the ‘paddle up standard’ in three events.
Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
Re: Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
Totally in favour. But why can't we tackle C2 at the same time? I would suggest separating div 2 and 3 too.
Re: Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
I agree with Dave.
It is currently far too easy to get promoted from Div. 2/3 C2 into the much harder Prem. / Div. 1 class.
Ther are a lot of C2 crews who could paddle Div. 1 water but few who could or would be prepared to take on Prem. water.
I suspect that many Div. 3 C2 crews would feel equally unsure about taking on Div. 2 water.
Let's introduce separate divisions for all C2 classes.
Races will never be quorate but with the removal of the C2 class from future Olympic's, they are now never going to be so.
Steve
It is currently far too easy to get promoted from Div. 2/3 C2 into the much harder Prem. / Div. 1 class.
Ther are a lot of C2 crews who could paddle Div. 1 water but few who could or would be prepared to take on Prem. water.
I suspect that many Div. 3 C2 crews would feel equally unsure about taking on Div. 2 water.
Let's introduce separate divisions for all C2 classes.
Races will never be quorate but with the removal of the C2 class from future Olympic's, they are now never going to be so.
Steve
Re: Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
I'd certainly agree with equalising promotion points across all classes.
Regarding C2, agree with you Steve about it being too easy to go up from 2/3 to P/1, and it being a big leap. It's not difficult for a new, but relatively inexperienced crew to go straight into P/1 in a season (as me and Ethan might discover!).
It's nice to have quorate races, but again as you say I suspect numbers will drop-off over the next couple of seasons. But it feels counterintuitive to be splitting divisions with declining numbers. Currently there are only 15 boats having raced in P/1 and 57 in 2/3. So if we start splitting those will we end up with 10 in Prem, 15 in Div 1, 20 in Div 2 and 25 ish in Div 3?
It would slow down progression if you had to do at least 3 races in each division though. The only other thing I could suggest would be to remove in-year promotion for C2, and have a fixed size of P/1, with the top/bottom boats getting promoted/demoted, as it was years ago. At least that would mean that the boats going up would have to have had some good results at Div2.
But, it was great having 10/11 boats on the start line at the Cardington 2/3 this year, it would be a shame to regularly be the only C2 on the water.
Paul.
Regarding C2, agree with you Steve about it being too easy to go up from 2/3 to P/1, and it being a big leap. It's not difficult for a new, but relatively inexperienced crew to go straight into P/1 in a season (as me and Ethan might discover!).
It's nice to have quorate races, but again as you say I suspect numbers will drop-off over the next couple of seasons. But it feels counterintuitive to be splitting divisions with declining numbers. Currently there are only 15 boats having raced in P/1 and 57 in 2/3. So if we start splitting those will we end up with 10 in Prem, 15 in Div 1, 20 in Div 2 and 25 ish in Div 3?
It would slow down progression if you had to do at least 3 races in each division though. The only other thing I could suggest would be to remove in-year promotion for C2, and have a fixed size of P/1, with the top/bottom boats getting promoted/demoted, as it was years ago. At least that would mean that the boats going up would have to have had some good results at Div2.
But, it was great having 10/11 boats on the start line at the Cardington 2/3 this year, it would be a shame to regularly be the only C2 on the water.
Paul.
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Nick Penfold
- Posts: 338
- Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm
Re: Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
The C2 promotion target may be too low, but only 4 boats have got up to Prem/1 this year. Isn't the right question: given the tiny numbers racing in C2 (it's almost never quorate) and the heavy admin burden (easily the hardest class to manage) does it make sense to have C2 as a ranking class at all?
Should I duck?
Please don't reply to this here, it will send CeeBee's thread off course. I will start a new thread to discuss it.
Should I duck?
Please don't reply to this here, it will send CeeBee's thread off course. I will start a new thread to discuss it.
Re: Change to make promotion points the same for C1s as K1s
The good thing about any of these motions, is that they are not forever. If people in general think that it is fair, it can be implemented for 2017 and the impact reviewed during 2017 using the ranking tables. If it is felt that this isn't quite having the desired effect, a motion can be submitted next year to the ACM to modify it.