The future of C2 in 2017

[Steve Agar]

I haven't scoured the rules, so maybe Colin can answer this one quickly for me. Under PP do all entries contribute to making an event quorate? If not, at how many P/1 events can we expect the C2 class to be quorate, given that there will be about 3 active crews remaining after this year's demotions?

[Canadian Paddler]

Steve
Paddle up does not count towards making an event quorate. Only host division paddlers count.
So we need to encourage other crews to race.
Ideas on here of single division for c2 were too late for the ACM and I am not sure they would have been any help in making quorate events at P/1.

[Steve Agar]

So we've abandoned the class that has brought 75% of our medals at the last 2 olympics?

[Canadian Paddler]

Topic split off from PP as it is not fundamentally linked.

Steve, I do not think we have abandoned C2, but paddlers seem to have done so. Maybe in this commercial world the absence of a, funded, long term future for the paddlers is an issue, but as you point out trhere are (probably) only three crews paddling seriously next year in Prem / 1. This is exacerbated by C2 no longer being an Olympic event, so there is no elite funding, as you note elsewhere Worlds medals are not considered, only Olympic medals.

This means that all crews (host and and anyone paddling up) will be getting points depending on their results compared to Mk1.

In my opinion knee jerk changes with a ranking system already under major change (PP) will not affect this fundamental lack of people paddling the best slalom event of all. You may disagree, but lets think about HOW we get people into C2. This is not just a National issue, but an international one, at a recent ICF coaches conference it seems that the approach in many countries is to support existing, medal winning, crews for a year, or maybe 2, but no further support. Worlds medals are nice, but do not affect funding at the elite level like Olympic medals.

[Steve Agar]

Colin,

Thanks for starting a new thread - the problems we have in C2 are unconnected to the Portable Points, although we can but hope that many of the aspiring div 2 crews take the opportunity to paddle on more challenging water (although the increased points required for promotion works counter to this unfortunately, exacerbated by the inevitable paltry points scored by most at inquorate events). It's difficult on a forum like this to gauge general opinion, but I would really like to hear from those that are thinking about paddling C2 what will motivate them and what will put them off bothering - lack of quorate events, cost, lack of Olympic places, chance to be top dog - there may be a multitude of reasons, or maybe some common feelings. We need to see what happens this season, and try and find out some facts before making more rule changes, on that I agree. I am, however wary that once gone, it will be very difficult to return to past popularity, so we must not only keep all the doors open as far as possible, but understand whether or not the sport, as a whole, values this class and wants it to continue. Maybe there's room for div 1 events with reduced, or zero, C2 entry fees to encourage paddling up and make an unofficial ranking list with these classes being deemed quorate with 5 boats of whatever division. It would mean organisers sacrificing lucrative kayak entry fees, of course, so subsidy from central funds may be required. Is there a will to do this? Would anyone really object if we ended up with 6 or 7 boats paddling at div 1 events for free? We still won't have quorate Premier classes, of course, but at least we'd be trying to help build a foundation for a return to former strength in a few years? I don't see why this needs to go through the ACM if there was a real desire to do something this season - I've always thought that common sense could play a part if the idea has any merit.

[Toomuchtooyoung]

My teenage paddler loves C2, but unfortunately is just too knackered to do a C2 run after K1 and C1, and I'm too time and money poor to take them to events solely for C2.

[WindsorCC]

As has been discussed elsewhere on here, there are certainly quite a lot of dads paddling with their children (I think you do that don't you Steve? I know there's Steve and George Harratt, Justin Bunn and his boys etc etc) as it's a nice way to be able to still go along to div 2/3 races with the family, introduce them to slalom etc.

As we all know there are then loads of casual crews who will get together occasionally, plus a handful of serious crews who are looking at selection. I'm sure the loss of funding will have some impact on C2 as there are going to be crews who now won't see it as a route into the junior/U23/senior teams, but I suspect mostly on P/1.

I think the family crews are probably safe and will continue, as will the ad-hoc crews. I think doing free entry would encourage more crews to 'give it a go', but as has been discussed before, the number of ad-hoc crews is a major headache for the ranking list compiler as they often will do just one or two races, not apply for a bib etc. Free entry could make that worse...

The question is how we get more crews taking it more seriously, but it's always going to be more challenging as there's the cost of a boat, training time together, racing other classes etc.

The only thing I can think of would be to try and make sure that there are still opportunities for racing internationally at junior/U23/senior and it doesn't get completely ignored because of the lack of funding. But how does that happen when all of the focus and funding is elsewhere...

[Steve Agar]

You're right to focus on progression. We're now at a stage where many "non-serious" crews will be able to paddle at div 2 and 3 events, and get the satisfaction and fulfilment they want out of the sport. But at the top end, we've lost the plot for some reason. I'm really concerned that those currently very few crews that might continue to press for international standards won't have anyone to paddle against. Of the 6 crews that will remain in P/1 next year after demotions (other than the 3 Short season crews, and I don't know how serious they are), I don't expect 4 of them to be paddling. The chance of any quorate events, and any chance of the likes of Finn and Ben having any peers to test themselves against and make the progress they are capable of, are absolutely minimal. I'd be happy to be proved wrong. We won't even be able to select any national team paddlers on the basis of results! Therefore motivation and opportunity has gone. I could accept that if the class really were dead, but I believe the lack of quorate events over the last two years has as much to do with the combined P/1 structure than overall lack of interest. I would maybe still paddle-up at div 1 events if entry fees weren't discouraging (provided I could drag my son away from uni exams or alps trips and the like) if it meant making it quorate for others, but having been demoted (and I'm not complaining) I can't see us turning up to enough div 2's to attempt promotion. Paddling-up at div 1's is an option, but utterly pointless for almost all C2s if the event is non-quorate anyway as I've pointed out elsewhere. Far more fun for some like us (and I think there are others) to swim at HPP than to run aground at Wark or West Tanfield! We may get some paddle-ups entering div 1 events, but hardly likely at Premier - cost and lack of time on the water is so offputting, especially when its now unclear what crews are aspiring to. My comments about the podium programme elsewhere - funds are targeted only at winning Olympic medals - means that the grassroots are neglected. We, as in other sports, have let the money do the talking, and are paying the price. It appears to be the case that if you're not "in the programme" then you're not wanted, and, more importantly, there is nowhere to go other than outside the sport to seek fulfilment. I believe C2 is a victim of this (although it's not the only cause of decline). We have a problem to solve in understanding why crews are no longer interested (and that's why I'm keen to try any initiatives sooner rather than later), but it may take a more radical view of how the sport is being directed to solve the underlying issue!

[Steve Agar]

Not wanting to push the point, but the extra £3m granted to British Canoeing by Sport England today on top of the £19m and a bit from UK Sport "will be ring fenced for the talented athlete programme".

[JimW]

The only reason I would consider paddling C2 is if I thought it might be essential to help the class grow, I really do not think I have the temperament to paddle C2, in fact my last attempt to paddle a canoe tandem on WW would heavily suggest that I don't, irrespective of how much fun myself and Gary had in the C2 ducky on the flat Div 3/4 course at Aberfeldy this year.

[harratts]

Typical.

No sooner than we apply for and receive our race bib now that the C2 promotion points have been sorted out to allow me and George to do more that one Div. 2 race in a season without ending up back in the top division, he goes and damages his knee which may need surgery to rectify that would put him out for the whole season.

Grrrrrrr

[Steve Agar]

Go for amputation - if you're quick he'll still be able to paddle at Washburn, and it'll help to offset the new boat weight rules as well.

Pass on our sympathies and best wishes for a speedy recovery, and tell him to stop kicking his brother and his Dad!

Steve

[WindsorCC]

Oh no, sorry to hear that. Hope he gets well soon and we'll see you back in 2/3 next year!

Paul.

[Mark H]

Ben and Finn have bean mentioned in the conversation as one of the more serious crews.
There will be no Prem/ div 1 races this year where 5 crews turn up so the points will be worked
Out against K1 men. This makes Prem races unrealistic for a crew of 15 year olds against full time
adult Olympic gold medal athletes. So to race in Div 1 makes more sense,at least crews stand a chance of making
some points. If Ben and Finn don't make 1000 points this year, it removes the option of them going for selection in 2018
as you have to be in Prem/1 to enter. (Funded or unfunded).
Selection to GB has now been based on % for a development squad which leaves C 2 needing to make 135%
against the best paddlers in the world on a course the C2 will get to paddle maybe a handful of times before selection.
The seniors will get this in one week.
Ben and Finn have been very lucky to have had the support of both Steve Harrett and Steve Agar from their very first outing to making the GB squad last year. Both the C2 and parents thank both parties for their time and support shown to the boys.
It was a big mistake demoting C2 crews this knowing where the class stands. The fun had and the friendships made in the
C2 will stay with the boys and the families for a very long time. It is a very special class that has been abandoned.I am happy to help in anyway to help the class stay alive. Free open races within a normal race is a way forward in the short term.

[Steve Agar]

Mark,

I suggest we look at whether a change in rules strictly requires ACM approval, or whether there is something that can be done to allow paddle-up crews to be counted towards a quorum in C2 this season, for instance, meaning we could get 5 decent crews together for some div 1 events, or at the very least change the multipliers applied to non-quorate events. I suggest that these need revising anyway as course design has increasingly worked against C2s with much tighter staggers, etc., which are perfectly fair a for everyone in the same class, but work against C2s when compared against Prem kayaks. You onlky need to look at the non-quorate points won over the last two seasons to see that the comparison is unreasonable, even for the better C2 crews. Colin Woodgate knows the rule book better than anyone, I guess, so he might be able to point us in the direction of any options available.


Steve