Online Entries - The Future - Have your Say?

[Patrick O'Hara]

Cardington Div4 entries were 8 double plus 11 Saturday and 10 Sunday. We let it be known before the event that it was full so this will have deterred attempts to enter but unfortunately we did also have to turn some away on the day, this was a tough decision but we were already up to our limit with a long day of racing for all.

[Dee]

That is a really tough one. Hard to turn people away but anything else isn't fair on others who have already been told no room

[HPPaddle]

Hi Dee,

Is there anything in the rules to say that a Paddle Up entry can't be converted to a host division entry after promotion?

HPPaddle

[Dee]

As far as I know there is no concept of 'converting' entries anywhere in the full book (CP may come along to correct me though )

My problem is where does converting start and stop. If a paddler is entered in K1, say, but gets promoted out of the division then can they convert their entry to C1?

What happens if they had a C1 entry accepted to make an event quorate even though the event was full (this is permitted in the rules). Should they be allowed to convert that entry to K1.

Is it different for entries that are on the waiting list/have been accepted.

A promotees has the right to cancel an entry. Suppose they have an entry in div 3 as part of a div 2/3 and get promoted to div 2. We have only said we will charge div 3 fees so cannot just charge the extra. The paddler may not want to paddle in div 2 and would rather cancel, but we can't automatically cancel because they might want to 'convert' (assuming conversion is a thing) to a different class or paddle in div 2 and pay extra.

There are a whole lot of ifs and ands around promotions and very little in the rule book as far as I can see. I could write pages of nuances. There is some custom and practice but it is inconsistent. People handle the nuances based on their own understanding, experience and detailed knowledge of the situation. To implement something in a system it has to be explicitly defined and or handling of promotions is not!

I think a good start could be to explicitly define promotion of paddle up entries as it's probably the easiest, but .....

[Dee]

Re Logging in.

We have done a bit more investigation on this. There are a only handful of people that have been through the logging in process more than a dozen times in the last couple of years (so say once a month). Most of these are recognisable to me as organisers. Although we haven't added passwords we have:

1) Changed the system to keep you logged in as long as you access it once a month (it was forcing monthly logins before)
2) Changed the emails so that when you get an email and click the link, within reasonable timescales, then it will automatically log you in (assuming that you are not logged in under another email address). This should make it easier for those being offered places from the waiting list etc.

I'm not sure how much difference this will make, but hopefully will ease the flow a little.

[SlalomMom]

I have found the online entry system a godsend, I have been able to enter all races pretty much before the season begins for host division and paddle ups, however, my only complaint is that on promotion to a higher division I was unable to enter the new division races for more than 2 weeks whilst waiting for the bib database to be updated (nobodies fault, nick was away, just bad timing) I have now done that however 1 is already full and he's now on the waiting list, and quite a way down I may say despite being on the waiting list for a paddle up since march. I cannot complain at this as the event is fully subscribed with host division paddlers, however if I didn't have to wait for the bib database to be updated then he may have got a place or at least be further up the waiting list, so a suggestion of maybe a 'new promotion' option to be added so that races can be entered as soon as promotion is gained. Other than this one problem I've come across I cannot praise Dee highly enough for bringing the online entry system in.

[djberriman]

The ranking database is updated as soon as results arrive, usually by the wed after the race at the latest often on the Monday. When Nick is away I handle this for him and indeed whilst he was away loaded all the results as they arrived. The ranking database on Nicks site should/would have shown he was promoted however this is only theoretical until the bib has been applied for and added to the database. There are reasons for this such as getting the paddler to apply for the new bib (and return the old one) as well as confirming it is indeed a promotion (to avoid errors in the ranking database or points incorrectly awarded to paddler etc) and to award the promotion certificate.

So the delay was not the ranking database as such but they delay in getting a bib issued.

Given that the database knows the paddler is promoted it would be possible for Dee's system to allow the paddler to be entered on a temporary bib number and I'm sure it probably will do one day as and when she has time to add the code and test it. She has done a fantastic job and I'm sure all the bells and whistles will come over the next few years as and when she has time.

In the mean time you can send an entry in by post rather than wait.

The organiser MAY be able to help if you contact them but they will be very busy and your email may end up in their spam.

[Dee]

As mentioned in my earlier reply I believe the answer is for the application to generate a pdf which can then be printed. To be clear I'm not talking about a print to pdf function, I'm suggesting that the application defines the PDF layout using JavaScript libraries such as jsPDF or pdfmake. Apart from the hardwork and time required to enhance the application to do this is there any technical reason why this is not possible?

Unbelievably (well I'm astonished) - I think I might have succeeded in creating a means of producing the entry cards (single sided)

This is going to need testing on different printers, but thanks to the suggestion by Patrick above, I have (after 3.5 days of tearing my hair out) managed to add a button than when pushed automatically generates a pdf that can then be printed to card.

This is going to need a bit more testing by organisers but I think it should all work. It may be possible to add an option to print onto pre-printed cards which would have the advantage that they are perforated, but I need an actual card to experiment

(Patrick - thanks for the pointers. In the end I couldn't used jsPDF as it doesn't work properly with node and pdfmake was a bit high level. However I've used pdfkit (on which I believe pdfmake is based). I wouldn't have got there though without your suggestion, so thanks!)

Feeling ever so slightly pleased with myself - so no bubble bursting until Monday please

[RobM]

It works perfectly.
I succeeded in the mail merge from Simply Slalom to Duncan's word document, but this is so much better
thank you

[JimW]

If you could just add a like button to the forum, I'll press it for you

(in other words, Well Done!)

[Patrick O'Hara]

This sounds like a great step forward for using the online entry system at lower division events and will certainly make the decision to use it next year much easier. Thanks Dee for all the hard work.

Patrick

[Dee]

Glad to say that it's now also possible to print on to the pre-printed, perforated cards too, which means that the 1000s stored in garages will not go to waste and you do not need a guillotine to slice the cards up.

Hoping you are right and that it encourages more clubs to give it a go next year

(for that matter most late season div 2/3/4s won't have had much in the way of entries yet and could still be added should they wish!)

[CeeBee]

Dee

You are a star!

We would love to use the superb online system for Division 4 entries and would be delighted if you had some time to develop this so it was possible.

The Div 4 paddlers will not have any information on file for them - could we capture the info at the point they try to enter a race online entries by having an option to add a Div 4 paddler to a register which can then be used for the first event and any subsequent event that year e.g. name, dob, membership - yes/no, membership number, club, sponsor etc i.e. the same data you capture for a bib application and give them a "notional" bib number. Organisers could then print off these entries using this notional bob number and create a start list. They can then add manually the real bib number to the entry card for the bib numbers they have on site e.g.
So the bib number box would have the notional bib number as (N) 126 with something like (Real) 29 underneath if they paddle with bib 29.

This could help with promotion to budding new paddlers to help them the sport (they would obviously need to sign up to this).

[Dee]

I do like the idea of a "notional bib". My concern is still the basics of needing parental signature. Yes, they could be required to sign the card and show proof of bcu membership when they get to the competition and before they get on the water, but if they don't and something goes wrong .....

I do wonder whether I could link into the BC membership systems (I haven't asked about this), this could mean that registered BC members could enter they number and we could pick up the rest of the info (at the very least we could check validity of bc membership number supplied)

I will never say never, but I still think this is low on the priority list for next year - Multi class discount probably higher up the list (unless someone brings a motion to kill it ) and still need to work on panceltic and champs and I think there are some tweeks to do for Vets and then there's promoted paddle-ups and promoted bib-waiters and .......

[CeeBee]

I do like the idea of a "notional bib". My concern is still the basics of needing parental signature. Yes, they could be required to sign the card and show proof of bcu membership when they get to the competition and before they get on the water, but if they don't and something goes wrong .....

Currently, at Div 4 competitions, they will often get on the water before they enter anyway and realistically, Div 4 events are all low risk.

1.The system could process the entry to allow it to make its way onto the start list which takes one burden off the organiser.
2.The system could allow the parent to tick for assumed risks assuming that this is deemed acceptable or the organiser can still be responsible for getting the card signed on the day before they compete.
3. The organiser is still responsible for checking for proof of membership and taking out day membership before they compete.

Doing point 1 initially and leaving points 2 and 3 would be really good to see what the uptake is. The organiser would still have some administration on the day but the whole filling in the entry card on line would reduce the headache. Our new club parents were inducted in taking entries for our Div 3/4 event and each entry on the day takes about 5 minutes to process and results in long queues. It is such a bad start to the weekend for not only the organisers but also those trying to enter and get their paddler practising. Please can we cross your palm with silver