Coping with Numbers in Div 1

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by WindsorCC » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Mick h wrote: I have accumulated 1703 points this season which should have been enough to keep me in Div 1, so I have not entered anymore races. However, now there is talk of moving the goalposts, is this fair?
Something I was going to add to my comment, but forgot, it does only seem fair to make it clear at the start of the year what the cut-off point is going to be for demotion - either number of points, or more likely total size.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JimW » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:11 pm

Foxton wrote:I noticed that some div 2 paddlers have managed to get a place in the div 1 race coming up at LLandysul as PU’s whilst there are div 1 paddlers who can’t get a place on the waiting list. I’m not against PU’s when there is space but when you have fewer races in div 1 it adds to the problem.
Llandysul is distorted because many of the PUs are entered as Pan Celtic or Junior/Vets champs competitors and therefore were given the same priority as the host division, including for the non championship day.

We could have all entered as officials, in which case our national slalom committees would have paid our championship entry fees and as I understand it online entries counts officials within the advertised limit anyway so it would have made no difference to availability, but might have made the bumped div 1's feel better :)

Debs
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Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Debs » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:09 pm

I noticed that some div 2 paddlers have managed to get a place in the div 1 race coming up at LLandysul as PU’s whilst there are div 1 paddlers who can’t get a place on the waiting list. I’m not against PU’s when there is space but when you have fewer races in div 1 it adds to the problem.
I have heard a few promoted div 1's are having the same problem in getting a Prem entry. Nothing left for this year an large waiting lists.

JoS
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JoS » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:13 pm

We keep trying 45 seconds to see if it works and we keep getting backlogs in section judges giving their results to control because they only just have enough time between paddlers to read you things. 45 seconds is enough time to see a div 1 and prem paddler through a short section and immediately read out what they did to the control clerk. But if you get behind in reading out penalties by more than a couple of paddlers, or somebody asks for a transmission check, at 45 seconds you can't catch back up again, at 1 minute you can. It doesn't look like it makes a difference on the river but in control it really does.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:18 pm

Published for Lou at Llandysul Paddlers:
Our October slalom is one of the last div 1 races of the season and therefore it is always super busy and there is always a waiting list. As you know we ALWAYS try and make sure that everyone gets a race and last year we even flirted with the realms of daylight to make sure that everyone got a space.
This year, on top of that we have the British Junior Championships and the Pan Celtic which has added to the amount of entries received. We sent out a message back in June to say to that we were opening the entry to everyone due to this. I know that the rules state that we shouldn't do this until 4 weeks before the race but that would have then excluded many of the potential competitors in those events. Also, due to us being quite a distance away we have tried to make it worthwhile and offer them the Saturday and the Sunday. I know that this hasn't made everyone happy, but that's an impossible task anyway.
We are working daily to reduce our waiting list. We have gone from 40 to 20 on the Saturday and from 23 to 9 on the Sunday. We have offered many people a single entry on the Sunday but they haven't really been taken up.
I know that next year we have the Pan Celtic and Junior Champs again. We definitely won't be opening the entry until much later - although the question of postal entries is then still an issue. Maybe we can state that we won't accept ANY entries until a certain date and all entries before that will be discarded? I would be tempted not to open the entries next year until the end of August as I was still getting a lot of emails advising me of promotions etc...
For our (Saturday) entry we have;
K1M - 97. Open - 15
K1W - 42. Open -9
C1M - 25. Open - 4
C1W - 16. Open - 3
C2 - 4
Officials - 1
Vets - 10

djberriman
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by djberriman » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:35 pm

My thoughts (for what they are worth). Removing practice (it would have to be ALL practice to be fair) would in my opinion ruin the sport, many div 1's like me are doing it for fun and the challenge, we take days off and travel early to get some FUN time on the water as well as some practice. Would I personally do a 3-6 hour drive for 2 runs down the course, the answer is no. Slalom is already seen and is in fact very expensive for time spent on the water. I guess you'd achieve 2 things by doing this, slow down promotion as paddlers wouldn't have as much experience, have less practice, less opportunity to paddle and would therefore develop slower thus reducing promotions, sadly you'd also reduce numbers in the sport overall. You would also lose some masters and vets from the sport, many of whom make up that scarce resource of volunteers who run many of the events and help at others, perhaps not many but there are few enough already.

Don't forget not everyone has easy access to moving water, so for some there main time on white water is at an event, this applies throughout the divisions. I sometimes think those lucky enough to have a resource close by forget this and don't appreciate how hard it is to just switch it on, on race day after training on a lake, pond or pool.

I enforced an earliest entry date this year, I simply published in the calendar I would not accept entries before 1st March (for my event in July) this was because I received entries and queries in January the previous year, well before the event and well before 3 or 4 other events I help at, it was frustrating particularly when people chased up emails. I didn't receive any entries until after the date published this year (thank you!). 90% of entries were received on line (Div 2/3) and it made life very easy, pretty much no queries and everything was done online, this helped paddlers as they could see their entry had been accepted/updated etc without pestering me. Postal entries were simply keyed into the online system as they arrived.

I certainly think an earliest entry date has a lot of merit and can easily be enforced on the online system. As to what organisers do with early postal entries depends on the generousity of the organisers.

Perhaps we need to track those who mass enter and then cancel as this appears to be a trend, it may not be but if it is then it needs to be discouraged, We all have to cancel from time to time, I had to this year as my house moving date was arranged 2 weeks before Tully and the only date that could be agreed was that weekend :(.

If Div 1 is too big then my answer would be to create another division as it used to be but who are you going to get to run say 14 events and where?

I hear complaints about not being able to get entries and paddle ups being the cause.

I have to ask is there really that many people that can not organise their diary a month in advance, even then they could put the entry in with a note to the organiser explaining you may have to withdraw for whatever reason, surely this would suffice. Some quote monetary reasons but the entry fee is usually the cheapest part of the cost of the weekend unless you are local and wouldn't a little forward planning over the year (saving up) solve the issue. Putting it bluntly are some people just disorganised or perhaps I'm being totally unfair, it would be interesting to know just how many people are affected and why before we restructure the sport to help 'late' entries.

No offence intended to anyone so please don't take any.

djberriman
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by djberriman » Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:54 pm

PS re the query on costs.

My answer would be slaloms are lucky to break even but it does depend on the venue.

Fixed major costs:-

Slalom Committee Return (% of entry fees)
Trophies and medals (very expensive to even give some basic).

Variable major costs:-

Access Fee (for site/building)
Water Fee (for release/course hire)
Toilet Hire

At Howsham for instance, access fee £250 (£300 next year), Toilet hire £600, Medals/Trophies £420, Slalom Committee £740.

There are lots of other 'small costs' as well.

If a venue allows organisers to offer camping, charge for parking or offer catering then it is usually possible for the organisers to 'make' some money for their club/organisation without which many events would probably fold.

The reason for loss of venues is access issues, venue cost issues, no revenue opportunities, no local volunteers, not enough volunteers, lack of entries!

So for instance Town Falls, Abbey Rapids, Div1 at Tryweryn on Graveyard or Miss Davis's Bridge, Tees Div 1 (until Yorkshire slalom stepped in), Tees Div 2 (too expensive to run). West Tanfield is in its last year, and I think Pinkston and Shepperton struggled with entries for some events.

On the bright side we should have a new venue in 2019 at Linton Locks all things being well.

Debs
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Debs » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:07 am


I have to ask is there really that many people that can not organise their diary a month in advance, even then they could put the entry in with a note to the organiser explaining you may have to withdraw for whatever reason, surely this would suffice. Some quote monetary reasons but the entry fee is usually the cheapest part of the cost of the weekend unless you are local and wouldn't a little forward planning over the year (saving up) solve the issue. Putting it bluntly are some people just disorganised or perhaps I'm being totally unfair, it would be interesting to know just how many people are affected and why before we restructure the sport to help 'late' entries.
I was referring paddlers that have been promoted over the summer and are struggling to get a race entry for the rest of the season.
Paddlers seem to be in a no win situation. If you mass book your races this is being frowned upon? If you don't book well in advance you can't get an entry?
I think the idea of delayed entry dates is good.

lesf
Posts: 231
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 5:15 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by lesf » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:11 am

Tees Barrage isn't using the online system so is 'hidden' in terms of people seeing where we are at with entries (although I have been updating 'entries received' lists every month).

However I'm moderately surprised that the Prem only filled this weekend (even with a PCC alongside it, although that only accounts for 7 extra entries at this level) - any newly promoted Prem paddler that has been in touch has got a place, including those promoted at HPP in September. Ok I'm not going to be able to accept anyone promoted to Prem at Llandysul, but you wouldn't necessarily expect to get a place at a race the following week.
Also I still have a few places available for the Div 1 - newly promoted Div 2 paddlers take note. (and I only have one Div 2 on the paddle up waiting list that will kick in this weekend).

lesf
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Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by lesf » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:17 am

On the wider discussion:

Events at the end of the year tend to be more popular due to more people in the division as well as people scrambling to get more races in (whether they have been disorganised, not got the points they hoped early, desperate to get promoted, or simple want to paddle more).

So how big is the problem? My view is that it is starting to become one, and as we have been and are likely to continue to have more people going up than down it will become an increasing problem, so we need to be looking at it long term:

I think we need to take another look at running other events alongside Div 1 and Prem races. The format of the Pan Celtic this year has actually helped by splitting each nations leg over two events rather than one, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look at whether there is another/better way of doing it. Possibly a stand alone event that rotates round the nations each year (similar to interclubs)? But would people travel for this?? Or do we simply say you have to select your team from the host division paddlers? But not every nation has enough paddlers in the relevant division. When the Junior & Vet Champs were at Pinkston the Championship classes ran over two days (K1M & C1W one day other classes the next) meaning the number of additional entries each day was reduced, so it would be worth looking at that. And for next year could the PCC run at the March Llandysul and the J & V Champs run at the October one?


Removing practice at Div 1 - like other I don't like this, but as has been said you need to then remove all practice as sometimes its the only chance you get to familiarise yourself with the water, and how many people would drop out if they were getting a 1/3 less water time for their entry fee? (I've just switched from PU to Demo runs at the British Open as I'll get far more water time for far less cost). Also removing practice will be to increase number, and so make a longer day for volunteers judging, timing etc

Reducing numbers in Divisions - fine, but you need to let people know expected points cut offs/numbers early in the year. Also where do you put them? A new division makes the most sense (to me), but who is going to run these and where will they be to provide a sufficiently challenging experience for those getting demoted? The new division would (for me) need to be slotted between 1 and 2 and be based on using the more challenging races in div 2 for the new division (probably reducing the number of Div 2 races rather than adding extra events, and would take in paddlers demoted from 1 and the top end of Div 2 (and a proportional demotion of paddlers from Prem to 1 also).

Make promotion harder I'm going to stick up for those getting promoted - getting promoted to Prem is hard (try it if you don't think so!) and those getting promoted generally fair pretty well when they are there. Also just because more people are getting promoted from 2 to 1 doesn't mean its easy, those doing is are working hard for it. The higher numbers are mainly the result of more races at Div 2 meaning more opportunities for promotion. Perhaps they don't relatively fair as well once in Div 1 but that is related to the jump in course/water difficulty between the divisions and the new division being more competitive - it doesn't mean they are not ready for Div 1.

More events in Prem and One - who is going to run them and where - plus the more weekends you add the the more some people will want to race. And then fewer weekends are spare for people to help run lower division events or take new paddlers to div 3/4 events - I'm already struggling to find a spare weekend to support and encourage club paddlers to come along and try slalom

Entry opening date - while I see the logic that it would discourage block booking all events and subsequent drop outs, would it really? The organised people will still do all their entries as soon as they open, the disorganised people will still not get round to it until it is too late. As a paddler I tend to get all my entries in early (as soon as I see entry details) so I'm part of the problem - but then I'm in a position to block out the weekend without worrying about work schedules /family etc and rarely withdraw (injury only). As an organiser getting entries in January doesn't bother me (and less so next year when we'll be going online), but it wasn't exactly an avalanche of entries in January, more a steady flow (rather than being compacted into a shorter 'open for entries' period). Yes withdrawls take up more of my time (but most I see are geniune reasons that weren't know when they entered, rather than a whim not to bother) but I waste far more time dealing with incorrect and incomplete entries/fees etc. I guess its still 4 weeks to my event so I'm only just starting get into 'withdrawl' season. Setting an opening date say 3 months ahead of the event wouldn't necessarily help new promotees either - if all those in the division still stick their entries in as soon as they can, someone promoted 6-8 weeks before the event still won't get a place if its full.

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:15 am

lesf wrote:Tees Barrage isn't using the online system so is 'hidden' in terms of people seeing where we are at with entries (although I have been updating 'entries received' lists every month)..
In this respect I think the online entries (combined with paddleups) is responsible for the perception of this issue being bigger than it is! The waiting list starts early as paddle ups pre-register so host paddlers see the long waiting list and think they don't stand a chance, whereas in reality they do.

I do publish the paddlers' ranking division on the waiting list but will look at making it clearer as to which are paddle up Entries.

I think there might be something to be said for moving the priority deadline to 3weeks before the competition rather than 4. This would keep places open for host paddlers for longer.

I'd also like to see a rule that paddle ups on the waiting list that are subsequently promoted be deemed to have entered on the date of promotion or just before the priority dead line whichever is the earlier. Recent promotees not entered as paddleups could be deemed to have entered before the priority deadline (or the actual date of entry if this is earlier).
This would push all new promotees ahead of paddle ups on the waiting list. In practice some organisers are already doing this or similar, formalising it would change the startlist order.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by Dee » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:21 am

JimW wrote:...as I understand it online entries counts officials within the advertised limit anyway so it would have made no difference to availability, but might have made the bumped div 1's feel better :)

Varies between competitions. Organisers can chose whether or not to include officials in the entry limit and can also choose to set an entry limit for officials separately or within the overall limit
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:24 pm

lesf wrote:Tees Barrage isn't using the online system so is 'hidden' in terms of people seeing where we are at with entries (although I have been updating 'entries received' lists every month).

However I'm moderately surprised that the Prem only filled this weekend (even with a PCC alongside it, although that only accounts for 7 extra entries at this level) - any newly promoted Prem paddler that has been in touch has got a place, including those promoted at HPP in September. Ok I'm not going to be able to accept anyone promoted to Prem at Llandysul, but you wouldn't necessarily expect to get a place at a race the following week.
Also I still have a few places available for the Div 1 - newly promoted Div 2 paddlers take note. (and I only have one Div 2 on the paddle up waiting list that will kick in this weekend).
Right, not been to the barrage for 20 years (despite driving past it on Friday), it looks even better than before so I might need to get my cards out again! Do you still need officials for the Prem too (not qualified to judge,but anything else)?

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by JimW » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:04 pm

djberriman wrote:PS re the query on costs.
I'm not sure if this is about my query as to why slaloms have gone or of someone else was asking about costs, I was trying to work out of it was the cost or other factors that have lead to the loss of some venues/events rather than what the actual costs are. You are quite correct to say that one of the Pinkston events struggled for entries, it was ours and we are still trying to work out how to make it successful next year (we think we have a much better date lined up, but will need to do more).

But in general you seem to be saying that it is a combination of all the factors that has lead to loss of venues?

Regarding diary issues, with the strange working patterns that many of us have these days there are always going to be times when competitors genuinely have to drop out at the last minute, many of them don't even ask for a refund. Fortunately I haven't had to do it myself yet for a slalom*, I did have to miss a polo tournament earlier in the year when I had to go to the Falklands, but its OK, the team won without me.

*need to withdraw as official for Alva since I've entered West Tanfield instead - I think our club is sending plenty of officials to Alva anyway

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Coping with Numbers in Div 1

Post by djberriman » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:21 pm

Reasons for loss of venues (in last 10 years, just my understanding/thoughts/hearsay) so take with large pinch of salt and don't be offended, please correct me if wrong.

Tees Div 2 - Financially unviable even with a grant from slalom committee
Grave Yard/Miss Davis's Bridge/Ski Slope - cost due to rafting/pleasure paddling
Town Falls - Access issues/Lack of volunteers (not sure which or if both or if other reasons)
Abbey Rapids - lack of volunteers as far as I am aware
West Tanfield - hire cost - last one this year
Bala Falls - not been a Div 1 there in a while, last one was cancelled due to obstructions I think.
Sowerby Bridge - paddlers not following the rules leading to issues with residents for the club

Unfortunately many sites HPP/Cardiff?/Lee Valley cost a lot to hire, and even when its released water (Tryweryn) the cost is excessive due to lost income for the site, or there are potential envionmental/water issues (Washburn) that restrict things. Things are becoming more difficult at a number of natural sites due to Hydro systems/Environmental constraints/Fish passes/Access issues.

Fundamentally I think its mainly lack of volunteers as there are sites (recent and long gone) that could be brought back as we have with Howsham Weir

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