6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Post Reply
Canadian Paddler
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
Location: Peterborough
Contact:

6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Canadian Paddler » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:04 pm

6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions
Proposed and seconded by Shepperton Slalom Canoe Club
The introduction of paddle up points (for the 2017 season) included a change to the rules such that combined division 1/2 races would no longer be permitted.
For Shepperton this meant that we ran a division 1 as a single division and trialled running a division 2 as a separate competition the following week. Neither competition was full and there were really insufficient entries to the division 2 to justify the continued running of the division 2 as a separate competition.
The loss of the division 1/2 competitions means that most division 2s are combined with division 3s and there will be even fewer division 2 competitions run on more testing water.
We therefore propose that the ability to run a combined division 1/2 is reinstated.
(Note: a reason given for removing division 1/2s was not wanting to encourage division 3s to paddle up on what was essentially a division 1 course; we believe this is addressed by the last bullet point). Page 52
B1.2 Competition Designation
Competition will take one of the forms below:
All Premier Competitions - Single division events, open to Premier paddlers and Division 1’s paddling up.
All Division 1 Competitions - Single division events, open to Division 1 paddlers and Division 2’s paddling up.
Division 1/2 Competitions – Two-division competition, open equally to division 1 and division 2 ranked competitors.
• In each competition, there is a separate race for each division and separate points and prizes are awarded
• The course is designed to division 1 standard, but may incorporate changes to accommodate division 2 paddlers (e.g. omission of gates, different start points).
• There is no paddle-up option for division 2 paddlers at a division 1/2 competition. (A division 2 paddler beating paddlers at division 1 will be awarded only the points earned against other division 2 paddlers and a division 2 paddler cannot enter the division 1 event as a paddle-up competitor).
• Division 3 paddlers cannot enter a division 1/2 competition as paddle-up competitors.
Division 2 Competitions - Single division events, open to Division 2 paddlers and Division 3’s paddling up.
Division 3 Competitions - Single division events, open to Division 3 paddlers, which may be combined with Division 4 competitions.
Division 2/3 Competitions - Two-division events, open equally to Division 2 and Division 3 ranked competitors, which may be combined with Division 4 competitions.
● In each event there is a separate race for each division and separate points are awarded.
● Prizes are offered for both Division 2 and Division 3 competitors.
● The course is to be designed to Division 2 standard, but may incorporate changes to accommodate Division 3 and Division 4 paddlers (e.g. reduction in the number of pumps at Pinkston or a different start point at sites such as Bala Mill).
● There is no paddle up option for Division 3 at a Division 2/3 competition. A Division 3 paddler beating paddlers in Division 2 will be awarded only the points earned against other Division 3 paddlers and a Division 3 cannot enter the Division 2 event as a paddle up competitor.
Division 4 Competitions - Single division events, open to novices and other Division paddlers. May be free-standing or combined with Division 3, Division 2/3 events and open events.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Nick Penfold » Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:44 pm

Having Div 1 races that are Div 1 only has made things a lot clearer for course designers. Div 1/2s were always supposed to be set to a Div 1 standard, but many of us will remember courses where the Div 1s were badly short-changed, with a dumbed-down course and good water wasted, apparently because someone didn't want to put Div 2s on something too tough for them.

I sympathise with Shepperton's position: this year they ran an early-year Div 1 double which was undersubscribed, followed the next weekend by a poorly attended Div 2 double, and they could have got the numbers into one event and been spared the workload of the second weekend. But I can't support this proposal.

At the very least, before supporting it, I would require a provision requiring a substantial difference in the course to be paddled by each Division - the removal, simplification or replacement of at least one challenging, technical move from the Div 1 course for the Div 2 race.

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by WindsorCC » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:26 am

At the Shepperton 1/2 in previous years I think the course design has been spot-on, provided the water levels are good.

There's a big cross that the solid Div 1s can do quickly, but will catch-out the bottom-end Div 1s and mid level Div 2s who get washed down and have a paddle-up.

Certainly plenty of differentiation within both Div 1 and Div 2.

I'd argue that someone going up to Prem based in part two wins at a Shepperton 1/2 with two gates open in the middle and a tough cross, is probably going to be in a stronger position than someone going up on wins at washburn and Llandysul at low water levels.

That's not meant as a slight on those courses, as I love both of them and it's tough, very tight racing. It's more to say that with the right water and good course design, a 1/2 is a valid format.

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Nick Penfold » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:05 pm

We can't make a rule for one club or site. If we allow a Div 1/2 format, it's there for other clubs to take up, for 2018 or in the future. Pure Div 1 courses have been good for the sport this year, and we shouldn't risk slipping backwards.

It seems likely that, if the rule change is refused, the spring Shepperton Div 2 will be lost. That's significant for the Southeast region, but (with 50-odd Div 2 races on the calendar) not serious in country-wide terms. In any case, the Div 1 will be a paddle-up opportunity for Div 2s, and the event could attract all the same paddlers as a Div 1/2.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Dee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:37 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:.... and the event could attract all the same paddlers as a Div 1/2.
Based on last year, it won't! We had few, if any paddle ups last year.

I agree that for the Southeast, losing the Spring div 2 is significant, but I'd argue that it is more serious in country wide terms as it is often (depending on water levels), one of the more challenging div 2s on the calendar, and everyone keeps moaning about the lack of challenging races in div 2.

The autumn div 2/3 at Sheppy is far more hit and miss with regard to water levels, so the spring one is quite key.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by JimW » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:16 pm

As a div 2 competitor having gained some experience in the division (so I may have expressed a different view previously) and from paddling up I would prefer if all div 2's were single events with courses set to challenge most of us, but not quite as challenging as div 1 courses

As a div 2 organiser, we wouldn't have an event unless we ran as a div 2/3. We do uniquely have a chance to vary the water level between divisions, but most div 2/3s don't have that option. I don't see div 1 organisers needing to boost numbers with a div 2 event alongside, I would suspect there are other reasons behind poor attendance at Shepperton div 1, possibly to do with the time of year? I do see div 2 organisers needing to boost numbers with a div 3 alongside even though it is a terrible compromise for competitors. Unfortunately I don't think enough competitors appreciate the compromise of div 2/3s or the importance of progressing to div 2s at more challenging venues, and I don't really see how a div 1/2 is going to attract them any better than a div 2 at the same venue.

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Dee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:44 pm

We don't think Div 1/2 will attract more div 2s than a div 2, but it will attract more than a div 1 with paddle ups. The issue is that we don't really have the man power to run a div 1 and div 2. We tried it last year and, quite frankly, it was exhausting. We also suffered for helpers as most people chose between the two weekends, (can't say I blame them - I only managed one day on the second weekend as I could barely stand). Further the div 2 on its own is not truly viable and with the potential spring water levels combining with a div 3 is not really on, so the best way of retaining the div 2 is to combine it with the div 1

We are at the start of the season and a long way south for many. Free camping is available, but that time of year a lot if people want more insulation than that offered by a tent, which of course increases costs. The year book isn't always out pre event and paddlers haven't really got that act together!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Dee » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:46 pm

PS. And, as Nick knows, at Shepperton, we often make the div 2 course a little easier by omitting one or two gates for the div 2 course
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Nick Penfold
Posts: 338
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Nick Penfold » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:28 pm

And, as Nick knows, at Shepperton, we often make the div 2 course a little easier by omitting one or two gates for the div 2 course
Yes: and I've already said:
At the very least, before supporting it, I would require a provision requiring a substantial difference in the course to be paddled by each Division - the removal, simplification or replacement of at least one challenging, technical move from the Div 1 course for the Div 2 race.
Given an amendment to that effect, I would probably support this motion. Without one, I'll oppose it.

Princi
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:17 pm

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Princi » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:30 pm

This shouldn't even be a proposal at the ACM. Events are run by volunteers that, for whatever reason, are wanting to give something back to the sport. At the centre of any event is a club trying to make a profit, however large or small. Any profit made is directed straight back into the club to support current members and encourage new paddlers. If, as Shepperton are suggesting, their most viable option is to run a division 1/2 then why should anybody else be dictating that they have to run any other format? Over the last few years we (my son, he's the paddler) have experienced everything when attending the early Shepperton race, and that's the beauty of a natural environment; different conditions make for a different results list! Like a millpond, in come the power based paddlers; quite a few weir gates open, it's the technical guys that come to the fore.
If anyone isn't happy with the course(s) set at Shepperton don't enter, but don't criticise because those organisers/volunteers could decide not to run an event and then everyone loses out!

Canadian Paddler
Posts: 1480
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 8:31 am
Location: Peterborough
Contact:

Re: 6.2 Division 1 / 2 Competitions

Post by Canadian Paddler » Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:24 am

An Amendment was proposed by Llandysul Paddlers and seconded by Viking Kayak Club such that the second bullet point becomes:
The course is designed to Division 1 standard, but 1 or more gates must be change moved or declared as not part of the Division 2 course so as to remove or simplify at least one challenging technical move
This amendment was rejected 21 votes for, 45 votes against and 6 abstentions
The original motion was defeated with 28 votes for, 42 votes against and no abstentions.
All spelling errors are intentional and are there to show new and improved ways of spelling old words. Grammatical errors are due to too many English classes/teachers.
Old. Fat. Slow. Bad tempered. And those are my good points

Post Reply