VET points Plan B

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
oldandslow
Posts: 180
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:11 pm
Location: Peak District

VET points Plan B

Post by oldandslow » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:23 pm

So here is Plan B which does not involve a complete overhall of the points system...
How about VETs points go something like this...
Premier points achieved plus 900 points
Division 1 points achieved plus 450 points
Division 2 points achieved plus 200 points
Division 3 points achieved plus 0 points

Will this work? ;)

Donna
Life is what happens when you're making other plans.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by djberriman » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:56 pm

I'm not sure just applying adjustments or minimum points fixes anything. It appears to be trying to stop a paddler at a lower division event getting more points that a vet at a higeher division event.

But that is a bit simplistic as a div 2 on Tees for instance is a lot harder than a div 2 at Wark/Howsham (and others) so is it fair for a vet to get max points at wark paddling an easy course when next week another VET races on a much harder course and gets less points.

The only real way I guess to be fair to all is do something like I believe other countries do and compare to Mr. Average thus reflect the difficulty of the race. I have no idea how that works!

JBS
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by JBS » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:02 am

Apologies in advance if I'm missing the piont but, if a Vet who is racing in a higher division is bothered that they are being beaten in the rankings by a Vet who is picking up more points at a lower division race, surely the answer is for that Vet to race lower down and gain more points that way. It also adds the head to head element to racing.

Steve Agar
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:30 am

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Steve Agar » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:43 pm

As usual, people want different things out of their participation and it is difficult to please everyone all the time. I believe the change in Vets competition has stimulated more paddlers to enter more events, and that is the key aim we must not lose sight of. For those, like me, who gain fulfilment and enjoyment from tackling a challenging course and maybe doing some bits well (if slowly) the final result isn't the highest priority and being able to paddle at any divisional level works well. Enjoying a bit of crack with other like-minded folks at the top and (hopefully) bottom of the course adds to the fun. For others, who often work hard at maintaining their level of fitness and skill, the challenge of competing against others at a high level of attainment is more important, and we need to ensure we cater for their needs as well. The current points system is simple and relatively easy to implement. It does throw up the likelihood that it is easier to get 500 points at a div 2 competition than a div 1 and that can lead to a sense of dissatisfaction in one's ranking position. I haven't looked at the statistics, but I do believe that the standards at Premier and Div 1 have risen faster than those at lower divisions, making it relatively harder to earn points at higher divisions. Therefore, it would be worth canvassing opinions amongst Vets to see whether they would prefer a change in points allocation that favours those who paddle at Prem and Div 1 events and then accepting that we may have to add some complexity (although I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to understand or implement). We might then be able to keep more people happy rather than potentially alienating those who feel that their division is being undervalued and want to see rankings represent absolute, rather than relative, ability. One simple solution might be to add a multiplier to the points currently won. Off the top of my head that could be 2x for Prem, 1.5x for Div 1, 1.25x for Div 2, for example.

Returning to Divisional Veterans risks losing the gains we seem to be making, at least amongst those I've talked to who now enter more events as Vets. If we want to add more complexity, we might want to re-examine the age range for Vets but that's a whole different topic!

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by harratts » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:09 pm

Hi all.

As always I think that I agree with what you are saying Steve Agar and your post Joel did make me smile. Counselling is available if require.

This issue of Vet.'s being out of position does not apply to all classes as the C1 Men's rankings appear fine to me using the current, very simple system. People just want to paddle where and when they wish to paddle and the current arrangements for Vet.'s (& C2's for that matter) does just that.

If enough Vet.'s have a real issue about being out of position in their ranking list then a simple time adjustment could be re-introduced, i.e. Vet.'s time less 8% is used against the divisional class times at Prem. races, Vet.'s time less 5% is used against the divisional class times at Div. 1 races, Vet.'s time less 3% is used against the divisional class times at Div. 2 races and no time adjustment is made for Vet.'s at Div. 3 races.

You would still have a situation that any individual would need to work out a). What races they wish to enter from the challenge / enjoyment perspective and b). What races they needed to enter to gain the most ranking points from. This is never going to be the same whatever system is used.

Feel free to shoot the messenger.
Steve

Steve Agar
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:30 am

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Steve Agar » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:54 pm

Steve,

We must stop agreeing with each other - it's not in the proper spirit of competition :-)

Main thing to me is whether there is a significant demand to make a change that otherwise risks putting people off, in which case we can do something. Let's see if folks have strong views one way or the other.

Steve A

WindsorCC
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by WindsorCC » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:04 pm

I really like the new system, it's been nice being able to go along with my boys to 2/3's and race with them for fun, then do Div 1 and the occasional Prem seriously. Definitely has increased participation as well.

As Steve and Steve have mentioned, it comes down to why you're racing, is it for the challenge? is it for fun? is it for end-of-season glory?

In the same way as some will race div 2 for fun, I can see how some will also race div 1 for fun, rather than for points. The current system will still favour anyone who can get top half in higher divisions, it just looks to be more difficult in kayak due to the larger, more competitive fields.

A key reason for the system this year was those of us who were consistently getting max points, and given certainly in C1 there are a few people getting 700+ points so if there are any modifiers based on host division, I'd suggest they are additions/multiples to points, not time modifiers.

However, as has been mentioned, we have no differentiation between a Div 2 at Cardington and a Div 2 at HPP. Within divisions people will choose their races, sometimes based on wanting the points, other times based on it being a fun course.

I've raced the Open in the past (not this year unfortunately due to injury) where I know I'll get less points than at Cardington, but it's a really challenging, rewarding place to race.

As everyone else has said already, it'll be interesting to hear from any Vets who have been frustrated because they are ranked below others who may have been doing less challenging races.

Paul.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by djberriman » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:14 am

Slightly off topic but I was at event where a paddler paddled VET on Saturday and really enjoyed racing whilst supporting their child. On the Sunday I asked them how their run had gone. It turned out there had been some moans about them competing and they had therefore decided not to race on the Sunday. As points were not affected the only reason I could come up with was that someone felt put out they didn't get a prize.

JimW
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by JimW » Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:24 pm

In retrospect, those vets that are serious about ranking seem to have worked out that all they need to do is race at a few lower division events to bag guaranteed points, as well as the higher division events that they are really in it for (and where they have a change to pick up those few extra points if all goes well). Maybe nothing is really broken?

rose
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:25 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by rose » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:42 am

I think the current system seems to be working, it seems quite competitive. If we add points I think if may deter some paddlers.

JBS
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by JBS » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:56 am

Points are not the only issue though........Oh no! Am I the only one who would prefer to relieve the organising club of a nice piece of cake or similar from the canteen for my efforts rather than a trophy that would be better served collecting dust on the shelf/windowsill of some young up and coming paddler?? :oops:

Steve Agar
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:30 am

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Steve Agar » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:20 pm

Definitely go for that ...or perhaps a cup of tea made available in the eddy at about the third upstream gate.

Nigel
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Nigel » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:27 pm

Evening All

Not had such fun and enjoyment out of my sport as I've had this season, seriously, shed loads of Vets on the start lists, paddlers of great experience, skill and humility, banter in the start pools, lung transplants at the finish line, most, like me just supporting our kids on their journey (well, sort of not really supporting, actually no, really trying to maintain some dignity and beat them :lol: ) what a fab time, bottom of my heart, thank you folks, long may it continue.

I'm looking forward to the time when my boys are next promoted because with this system as I said last year, I still get to paddle, and that's it for me, job done, the number don't really matter, the fact we have super stretchy lycra posh bibs, now that really matters 8) 8)


See you at the Yat.

Nigel

Steve Agar
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:30 am

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Steve Agar » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:34 pm

Any ideas on how to get a super stretchy body to match the bib?

Glad you're having fun - I always thought that was pretty important point of what we do, although hats off to those who can still hack it at the top level.

Jerry Tracey
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am

Re: VET points Plan B

Post by Jerry Tracey » Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:39 pm

I arrived late to the start line this season, owing to some personal issues, as I did not race until August. I was sceptical about the change to the VETs system, but I now like the current situation, especially the increased numbers and informal positive atmosphere.

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