How Much is too much for Div 1s

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Dee » Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:30 pm

Some venues are expensive! We have the option of charging enhanced fees, but would this put paddlers off?

A current single is £16.40 so £32.80 for a double

If there was an double div 1 at somewhere like Lee Valley (Olympic), how much would you pay?

If fees were £50 for the double would you still enter? What about £60, £70 etc
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

humphr
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:16 pm

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by humphr » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:09 pm

Lee Valley Jnr Selection is £25
Tees £25
Cardiff Prem is £35

Artificial venues cost money but I wouldn't expect to have to pay more than the fees that are paid out in the Prem races but the opportunity to race a double Div1 at Lee Valley would be excellent for £50
Another parent

Dee
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Dee » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:26 pm

But would you if that was all that was on offer?

Junior selection is run by Slalom Committee. If a club were to run something similar you have to give them some chance to make a small profit!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

humphr
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by humphr » Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:42 pm

I'd enter my daughter for sure and I suspect you'd get a high entry.

You have 40+ people wanting to do the Paddle Up at the Jnr Selection.

Clubs shouldn't be making a loss either

We talking 2019 or 2020? We have already lost one race and I view Washburn as being a bit iffy with water.

Personally I'd love to see a Div1 at Cardiff as well.
Another parent

Dee
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Dee » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:33 pm

humphr wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:42 pm

We talking 2019 or 2020? We have already lost one race and I view Washburn as being a bit iffy with water.
Not got that far yet, I’m just putting out feelers to see if it could be made attractive o club to take it on, perhaps with a bit of help the first year.

I should add this is not in any official capacity at all, just me thinking what if, and could I do something to help get it off the ground. (And probably forgetting that I have enough to do already
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Slapdash Sal
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Location: Peterborough

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Slapdash Sal » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:03 pm

What about a double div 1 at the Tryweryn - On the Graveyard or the Ski Slope?
That would be incredible and a good lead-in for the Prem races.
Just a thought.

Mike Mitchell
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Mike Mitchell » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:49 pm

A Div one on the Olympic course would be excellent.
After all it was built for Slalom.
I think £50.00 is acceptable for Two Days of racing.
We need to get a Sponsor or Slalom Exec to subsidise it.

Saying that the Tryweryn and Cardiff would also be good.
Or we could go back to Llangollen or the Serpents Tail.
Problem is, if it stays dry all river and Dam release courses are going to be doubtful.

Dee
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Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Dee » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:42 pm

.
Just to reiterate, I have not started this thread in any official capacity, so please don't get hopes up

The reason I started looking at Lee Valley was:
1) Spread of Div 1s - when Shepperton gets cancelled (as has happened for the last two years) then there is nothing in the South/South East (this is against 6 (ie 3 doubles) in Scotland, 6 in Wales, 3 in the North and 2 in the Midlands)
2) It might be expensive but it is a reliable venue (Tryweryn is another release with the potential for cancellations!)
3) It is relatively easy as a venue (lines etc are largely in place and ready to go, easy access, changing rooms, loos, no issues with fisherman, no sudden changes to water mid-practice) :twisted: )
4) It is near enough to where I live that I might be prepared to help a club get it off the ground (not that I'm an expert, but I have run a div 1 a few times and many hands...) :lol:

The biggest issue is cost - I don't think the numbers will stack up at £50 for a double, so would be looking at £60 and could be more if water time is more than I think. Hence this thread.

What I'm definitely not doing is offering to magically create Div 1s at all the wonderful venues that people remember all over the country (even if there was room on the calendar for lots more div 1s), but please don't let that stop anyone else :D :D :lol:
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by JimW » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:03 am

I suspect this would be relatively easy specifically in relation to covering costs for a div 1.
Work out how many entries you can accommodate in the time available,
calculate what you would need to charge per entry to cover costs,
round up to provide small profit for the club and/or to cover a few cancellations that deserve refunds and to cover fallin a bit short of full,
provisionally schedule the race later in the year,
accept entries at the start of Jan,
if the race hasn't got enough entries to cover costs by the end of Jan, it isn't feasible - cancel long before any payments are taken.
Probably need to tell people not to book accommodation until after decision is made at end of Jan.

Now if anyone can tell me how to work it out for a div 2 which never fills up and will get 2/3 of it's entries after the first payments are taken making cancellation a real headache for everyone, I need to hear from you!
We really don't want to charge enhanced entry fees anyway, but if it would put some people off and reduce the entry, that would probably leave us in a worse situation. Even if it left us with a bit more cash for water fees, a reduction in entries would reduce the worth of the race for the competitors.

Jasper
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 12:44 pm

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Jasper » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:57 am

Another angle may be to make a request of the Slalom Committee to reduce or eliminate their payment from these 'special' Division 1 races that are more expensive to put on rather than putting the entry fees up for paddlers to attend.

I think that they currently have a cash surplus in their accounts which is why they have agreed to do just this for all Division 3 races even when they now take place alongside Division 2 races.

If you don't ask you never get.

Running an event on Lee Valley (without any Practise runs - same for all competitors) would also reduce the overall costs of putting such an event on but I'm not sure how that suggestion would be received by many who look at their practise runs as added justification for the overall cost to attend the event.

Good discussion topic though never the less.
Jasper

JBS
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by JBS » Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:32 am

Personally I would be prepared to pay £60 for a double div 1 at LV. I'm guaranteed 4 runs and if you throw in a practise run each day I'd be feeling rather chipper about the situation. After all, as a Vet I paid £50 to race at the Open last season where I was only certain of getting the two runs on Saturday....and maybe a run in the semi's on the Sunday.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by CeeBee » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:25 am

There is no getting away from the fact that competing in Division 1 and prem is expensive. The entry fees are just a part of the costs. Factor in travel expenses for a family and travelodge/premier inn and a weekend slalom costs about £300.

Having local events will help if paddlers can stay at home and travel short distances so a double div 1 at Lee Valley and a double prem would be great and I think paddlers will pay £60 or £70 for a double. For those prepared to travel a long distance, It is certainly preferable to have a double event rather than a single race which has the same overheads to get there. That’s why double events were first proposed for paddlers to race at Grandtully.

What does it cost to run a slalom at Lee valley?

I think it would be perfectly reasonable to expect any club running an event to make a reasonable profit (£1000) it takes a lot of work and time and energy and profits get reinvested back into the sport.

The balance between program athletes and voluntary clubs is distorting a fragile ecosystem of events. There are fewer clubs running races and as paddlers join funded programs , most stop contributing to their club. This balance needs addressed to find new ways to run events.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by JimW » Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:11 am

CeeBee wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:25 am
I think it would be perfectly reasonable to expect any club running an event to make a reasonable profit (£1000) it takes a lot of work and time and energy and profits get reinvested back into the sport.
Thanks Ceebee,

Do others agree with this sort of number?
For all events or just div 1 / P?

Arrowcraft
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Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Arrowcraft » Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:59 pm

I think that the fees seem to have crept up over the years on artificial courses. Teeside is not worth the trip to be fair, neither is Pinxton. Cardiff is pretty good...but pricey and Lee Valley is just a bit of a shallow boat snapping ditch and not worth the fee. Plus, unless you train there all the time, you are unlikely to do well as it is so odd it barely resembles a river. It's more like a log flume....with foam bubbles. The changing rooms are nice though.

So no. £50 for a race takes the absolute...anyway. no. The game's getting too expensive.

Arrowcraft
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: How Much is too much for Div 1s

Post by Arrowcraft » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:14 pm

Actually. Rafting is killing these venues for slalom. 20 full rafts at £30 per head is around £4K per day . That's what they want these days to run events on these sites as the rafts pay for everything. Slalom is not even at the table when it comes to discussing the fees. It's very much take it or leave it. Plus they leave the courses like bouncy roller coasters with V waves so the rafts have fun. It's just the way it is. Slalom is too small a player. We need another 1000 paddlers to be able to compete in terms of prices. And that means lots of middle division paddlers on reasonable water rather than focus on team team team. The mid divisional race fees can be applied to subsidize the prem race costs for the elite paddlers.

So rather than look at the problem as a top division problem. Consider it as a sportwide issue. Build the base, get more people racing and having fun and the additional income will sustain the costs of elite racing.

The problem is that we do not have any div 3's and two's apart from TIDS etc as there's no point in clubs developing paddlers only to lose them to the huge squads...that the rest of us basically pay for. Support the clubs to get 50 racers each and we have a chance of keeping costs under control at the top level. Trouble is, not everyone can be at the top level which seems to be the mathematics of our current system. And people are leaving as soon as they drop off squads as they are no longer "special." Build the base and the costs will stay low.

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