Vets' Points

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
WindsorCC
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by WindsorCC » Fri May 31, 2019 7:51 am

Jasper I think the current system works ok for C1 vets, but I can see how it doesn't work for K1's at the moment.

I do quite like Steve's suggestion of a points multiplier, rather than a time factor (which then takes us back to the days when several of us in C1M were getting 1000 points in every race so there was no differentiation).

It would have meant Joel getting 2000 points at HPP, but to be honest if you're able to beat all of the Div1 C1M and are right up with the Prem C1M officials, you deserve that many. That's got to be worth more than 3 x wins at Div 2.

It rewards those able to beat at least some of the Prems, which is only going to be achievable for a genuinely good paddler, as placing 3/4 of the way down the field would get you 1500 points (obviously as Steve has said, subject to some fine-tuning of the multiples).

Nick Penfold
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by Nick Penfold » Fri May 31, 2019 3:17 pm

Things that make me uncomfortable with Bob's approach:
  • It squashes all points into very narrow bands, which means factors must be very precise.
  • Factoring points (rather than times) is a new complication for SimplySlalom. And believe me, there are a lot of complications already catered for in SS.
The other issue is that Vets does include some people who genuinely struggle to get decent points at Div 3 races.

I think the aim of the exercise should be to give Vets who race at Prems and Div 1s a fair reward, not to dilute the results of those who choose to go to Div 2s and Div 3s. So:
  • Factor times at Prem races (quite a big factor)
  • Factor times at Div 1 races (a smaller factor)
  • Leave times at Div 2 and 3 races as they stand.
The factors need research.

Ship
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri May 31, 2019 6:32 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by Ship » Fri May 31, 2019 9:51 pm

I have read the discussion on this topic with interest. The solution to this is to have a divisional system where you only compete against similar abilities with a point system that allows paddle ups for people to challenge themselves. This is the normal system that we have and we have opted out of to form our own group of “Vets”. We have all opted out for our own personal reasons but it allows us to race on any water as frequent (or seldom) as we want and still enjoy the sport.

There are not enough vets to have divisions and even if there were I would not want to be restricted on what races we could enter. I think this flexibility has resulted in a great supportive and friendly competition.

The system we have is not perfect however all other point system have issues

· If we score ourselves outside of the normal race based only on Vets positions then this would allow better paddlers entering lower division races gaining more points. As Div P/1 enter 2/3 races, Div 2/3 Vets would end up getting lower points even if they out preformed all other div 2/3 paddlers at the event.

· Having an offset based on a division would allow someone to get points just from floating from start to finish. :)

· Having a multiplier is rewarding a paddler for entering a more challenging race. The potential to earn more points is already a potential reward. We don’t give Paddle ups extra points because they challenged themselves. Also the value of the multiplier would be debated year after year.

If we are really considering multipliers for race difficulty should we not consider havening some factors for age and number of years paddling experience? I'm not being serious.

The current system works ok. I know it’s not perfect but it’s ok. If you want to have fun go to any races you want. If you want a challenge enter a higher division race. We all know our ability, the points don’t define it. If points really matter go to the races you get more points in or return to the normal system. Leave the current system alone and enjoy the race.

As for the trophy, do we really deserve it? There could be a mature Division P/1 paddler in the normal ranking system who is beating all of the vets but gets no trophy however because we have declared ourselves separate we get one.

Darren

JBS
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JBS » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:53 am

On reflection, I think I largely agree with Darren. Sorry Bob, I know exactly where you are coming from I got more points at a Div2 than I did from the British Open too (thanks for forgetting I was there too :wink: ).
However, it does seem unreasonable to uproot the whole system just to cater for a few of us who enjoy the Prem and Div1 races.
As for mature paddlers beating all of the Vets: I offer you John Dickinson as a prime example or even faster Huw Swetnam (who technically is old enough to be a Vet) :shock:

djberriman
Posts: 738
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by djberriman » Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:51 pm

Have to agree leave as is.

Those who want proper divisional racing should er go back to divisional racing.

Perhaps we need a vet vote to see how many are really interested in changing the current system. I'd hate for this to go to the ACM as a motion and be voted through when there is a possibility most vets are quite happy with how things are and wouldn't be represented.

Nigel
Posts: 13
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:16 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by Nigel » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:28 pm

Just entered my first ever Div1, never got to 1 in my time, but its looking quite likely that my boys will be the first #evansfamilypaddlers to make it and I thought I'd best get a taster of the action, they are doing officials just to thrash me :D

Bit of perspective, sub 90's last weekend at Ironbridge from the top div2 JUNIORS, comments about technical course etc abounded, and quite rightly, it was a good challenge and a for me, a steady 100+ saw me top third of the list so quite happy, worked hard, even harder on my course extension runs :shock:

Leave as is gets my vote, cake gets it too!! love my sport and the banter that goes with it, the change to our system last year will only kick in for me once the boys do the deed, but from then on I will be paddling the same as them and enjoying the challenges.

Nigel

JimW
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JimW » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:23 pm

JBS wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:53 am
On reflection, I think I largely agree with Darren. Sorry Bob, I know exactly where you are coming from I got more points at a Div2 than I did from the British Open too (thanks for forgetting I was there too :wink: ).
However, it does seem unreasonable to uproot the whole system just to cater for a few of us who enjoy the Prem and Div1 races.
As for mature paddlers beating all of the Vets: I offer you John Dickinson as a prime example or even faster Huw Swetnam (who technically is old enough to be a Vet) :shock:
I believe there may be a couple of members of GB team technically eligible to join vets if they wished...

I thoroughly enjoyed the McConkey Prem race, the first one I didn't eventually manage to get all the gates but I was quite close, if only I hadn't turned a smidgen too far taking the up on muncher so that I was too straight dropping into the hole and pulled a big old skool pop-out which threw me back out through the gate.... The only thing that I was disappointed with was the way so many people were saying the course was too hard for a prem race! I was pretty determined to prove that it could be paddled by someone with less than prem ability, but in the end I failed, although I did finish both runs and would not have placed last for a change. I actually preferred the Prem course to the Div 1 course, it needed a lot of strength and some bold moves, but was actually quite straightforward, the div 1 course required a lot more thinking about turning points etc although it was less physical.

The current system definitely suits me.

JohnMac
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:43 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JohnMac » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:40 am

Mike Mitchell, no messing has a bright and simple solution .... call it the 'Vets bonus'

... Mike would suggest the minimum points for competing at a Div 1 equals (say) 500
....Do we then simply add the Vet's normal divisional points to the 500?
....Easy to understand

KISS Keep It Simple Stupid and inspire those Vet's to get racing more - the new wave :D

WindsorCC
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:22 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by WindsorCC » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:35 pm

John, only problem with just adding 500 points to the normal Div 1 points (I think it's already come up in this thread) is that then coming last (even if that's by a minute) gets you more points than winning a Div 2.

As well as figuring out who's the best paddler over the season, we do want to encourage vets to paddle the water they enjoy paddling and not feel they need to start entering div 1, or Prem races and struggling just to get points.

So, it looks like either the current system, some kind of multiplier on points (which I think I favour) or back to the old system of a time multiplier (with the risk that we go back to there being no differentiation for quicker paddlers).

Paul.

harratts
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by harratts » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:21 am

Hi Paul.

I fully agree with your comments about giving any Vet Paddler who completes a Div. 1 event race a 500 point offset as not being the correct solution to any perceived problem with the current system.

I have never (to date) secured the maximum 500 ranking points available from any Div. 2 event race but would be more than capable of getting to the finish line at a Div. 1 race event but even on a good day beating only a handful of Div. 1 Host division paddlers in the process.

The result would be say 40 points from the Div. 1 plus the 500 point offset just for surviving.

Is that really what people think would be a better system than the one we currently have?
Steve

Nick Penfold
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 8:21 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by Nick Penfold » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 am

At Chapel Falls there was a fair representation of Vets. Here are the points they got (Day 1) and the points they would have got factoring their times by 1.10, 1.15 and 1.20:
Image
It's a matter of opinion, but I'd be most comfortable with the 1.15 factor results.
My view is:
Div 3 event: Vets' points by direct comparison with ranking event for the class
Div 2 event: Vets' points by direct comparison with ranking event for the class
Div 1 event: Vets' points by comparison with ranking event for the class after applying a factor of 1.15 (that is, divide best time + penalites by 1.15)
Prem event: Not enough data. Any ideas?

JimW
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JimW » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:35 am

Nick Penfold wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:14 am
Prem event: Not enough data. Any ideas?
Not enough of us doing them, is it just Bob, Joel and I?

I'm not too bothered since in speed terms I am not in the mix for div 1 or prem, simply enjoying the courses. Joel however did make a semi-final at the British open in C1, for which he earned less points than in a div 2...

WWR points are based on how long you finish after the winner rather than your position (I'm pretty sure I scored 0 at the ECA cup for being outside the %age that get points although I wasn't quite last) maybe something like that could be used for Vets so you get credit for being 'in the race' but not for floating down and being well off the pace (suspect my prem points would all be anulled by such a calcukation!)

harratts
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by harratts » Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:40 pm

Just to add to the debate......

The same paddler (Joel) paddled both C1 Vet and K1 Vet, on the same day on the same course at yesterday's Washburn Div. 1 race. Now that the results have been posted I see that he was able to secure the full 1,000 points available in his C1 but only 340 points out of the same 1,000 points available in his K1.

What does this tell us?

Is he just better at C1 than he is at K1? Perhaps this is true, but he is currently one of the highest ranked Vet's in his K1 too so he can't be too shabby in it can he. Please take this as a compliment Joel.

No the real issue is the current, very high calibre of paddlers in the K1 Men's division 1 coupled with modern course design.

If any system is brought in which 'artificially' increases Vet.'s points at Prem. & Div. 1 races what would be the effect on paddlers like Joel? Would his fellow competitors points be inflated so that they were closer to what Joel was able to secure until they too were awarded the full points available or would Joel also have his points inflated so that he could secure more than the usual maximum number of 1,000 points at a Div. 1 race?

Or heaven forbid we introduce a system to inflate K1 Vet points but not C1 Vet points. Imagine the banter that would ensue.

Leave it as it is, not perfect but perfectly fine.
Steve

JBS
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JBS » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:37 am

harratts wrote:
Sun Jun 30, 2019 9:40 pm
Just to add to the debate......

The same paddler (Joel) paddled both C1 Vet and K1 Vet, on the same day on the same course at yesterday's Washburn Div. 1 race. Now that the results have been posted I see that he was able to secure the full 1,000 points available in his C1 but only 340 points out of the same 1,000 points available in his K1.

What does this tell us?

Is he just better at C1 than he is at K1? Perhaps this is true, but he is currently one of the highest ranked Vet's in his K1 too so he can't be too shabby in it can he. Please take this as a compliment Joel.
Yes, I am just better in C1. My C1 times were 4 seconds quicker than my K1 times. I was never a K1 paddler and have onbly started racing it this season.

JimW
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets' Points

Post by JimW » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:55 pm

The problem is that by allowing all fruit to race in any basket we are trying to compare apples and oranges in ranking, which doesn't work.

Vets can enter races for any division, but perhaps should be ranked by division? The data must be in the ranking database already, just needs a different method of displaying. For each division that a vet has raced with (because we aren't actually in it) take the best 5 (if that many are available) scores for a ranking with a nominal vets subdivision (VP, V1, V2, V3). No need to choose a division, allow vets to rank in multiple subdivisions if they wish.

For new year bib numbers the obvious thing is to start at 1 with top VP and work down the list for each event ignoring the lower subdivision rankings for those of us in mutiple subdivisions in an event. A more fun way might be to take each vets highest ranking place no matter which subdivision and discard the others, and then put into order with priority from prem down where several get the same rank from different subdivisions.

For Vets trophy(ies), really no idea what might work. First thought was go by number of wins, but that will just lead to people entering div 3's for wins, there needs to be some way to credit wins in higher divisions?

It would be much simpler if we could have a top 10 Prem K1M race as an official in all non-prem races to use as a benchmark for assigning vets points instead of using host division.... (W and C events decided using the usual multipliers).

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