Unofficial UK Slalom BBS

I don't think you need to change anything.

5 year ago when I started back I went Vet. There was hardly any competition and I got first.

So I decided to go into Div1.

Then you have changed the system and there are now 50 plus Vets and some good competitons.

If I went back into Vets then I usually get around 700-800 points at Div1 so the system would be fine.


So don't mess with something that has just started working.
Any more Vets and we will be looking at stand alone races.

Other option.....

Fiddle factor for Div 1 and Prem.

My thoughts are multiply div 1 points by 1.7 so 300 points becomes 510. Haven't worked out one for Prem. Leave Div 2 and 3 as earned. This would be easy to do and as the one who would implement this I'd like the least pain possible, thus KISS.

Personally enjoying everything as it is, don't really care about prizes or trophies, I know I should get max points at Div 3, probably near max at a div 2 and I'll be lucky to get 200/300 at a Div 1 these days.


I'm not 'chasing points' or avoiding 'bigger water' I'm paddling because I enjoy it without the stress of having to do x events and achieve Y points. It means I can race wherever I take Olivia, where I don't have the time to be a judge, the challenge for me is to do the best I can, hopefully beat the divisional paddlers in div 2 and all but prem/1 officials at Div 3.

Duncan, I think this is wanting to have your cake and eat it

How many Vets are actually racing at Div1 or Prem? Not that many.....so unless they are complaining should we just leave it as it is?
We all know the score.....want to secure good points race in Div 2 or Div 1. Want to race on "bigger" water got to Div 1's or Prem's. I know that's what I'm doing.

Hi Dee,

I am unsure what you mean by your comment and as I say I am happy with things as they are.

My comment is based upon the last 10 years of paddling most courses in Div 1 and Div 2, especially the last 2.

My last year in Div 1 I would struggle to get 300 points whilst at most div 2 courses I would be near the top.

There is a large step up from Div 2 to Div 1 which is not reflected in the points system. So those who are pushing this agenda are correct in that their results at Div 1 do not reflect their achievements. Thus the up lift (which would only affect me & the vets league from a programming point of view) would help to reflect a fairer result and remove the current distortion caused by div 2 results.

I doubt however this would really fix anything as previously mentioned a 35 year old vet would still get good results at Div 1 without the uplift. For me my performances probably started to drop off at around 45 and they are getting worse as I age. So for a level playing field there should really be an additional factor based on age (and not a 5 year band either).

I doubt any amount of fiddling will actually make it fair to all which is why like many others I'd leave it as is.

If its just down to awarding trophies perhaps the vets should vote on who gets awarded them as is the convention in many sports (player of the year etc) rather than relying on some complicated formula to achieve the same result.

Duncan

Hi Duncan, Sorry, my comment was referring to the idea of vets being in a division, albeit notional, and getting ‘promotion’, but still being able to paddle at any division that they choose. Time differences and poor internet connection meant that my comment followed your later post rendering it somewhat meaningless.

Vets threads are always the busiest on this board which I find amusing as you all (mostly) claim to be racing just for fun! I see no problem with using a factor, either for comparing times, which would happen at Simply Slalom level, or to multiply points which could happen at Simply Slalom level or on database load (just need to be careful that it doesn’t happen twice! )

Vets until recently nominated a division but that too could be 'abused' this just reinstates that idea but with some sort of sanity check as to which division you are in. Thus if you do too well you are 'promoted' and if you get worse you get 'demoted'. Still one division, just with a nominal division which is used to rank paddlers so prem is always before 1, 1 before 2 and 2 before 3 as it used to be.

Do we need prizes anyway? They are appreciated, especially when they are useful waterbottles but we aren't going to be upset if we don't, especially when we aren't quorate. I would be just as happy with a round of applause at prize giving, especially on the day when I actually beat all the div 3's and can justify my 250 points. I've not done this yet incidentally but keep trying.
Harping back to last year's discussion I would still be much happier to achieve the points of the position we would have achieved. So if I would have finished second, I get the points of the second placed paddler not the first. So at Orton Mere I would have got 200 points not 250.
Looking at my points it looks like I would have been promoted to div 2 but if I had been in division 3, I would only have 1020 points and therefore would still be in div 3. So Duncan's 3 x 250 and promoted to div 2 does not reflect reality, especially in K1W with the fewer paddlers.

JBS wrote: ↑

Tue May 21, 2019 8:48 am

How many Vets are actually racing at Div1 or Prem? Not that many.....so unless they are complaining should we just leave it as it is?
We all know the score.....want to secure good points race in Div 2 or Div 1. Want to race on "bigger" water got to Div 1's or Prem's. I know that's what I'm doing.

Me too!

Hi All,

So far I have stayed quiet, but as the current holder of Bib 1 which I earned exclusively from points picked up at Div 2 competitions last year I think I should add my thoughts!

Do whatever you like with the points, award the trophies to whoever you like (does anyone have it as I have never received it from last year?) but leave it as one big division.

In the 1990's I spent a few years racing up to Div 1, I never quite made it to Premier. Now my kids are competing in Division 2 and 3 and we have a good load of paddlers from the club who are also competing in all divisions (except Premier). I enjoy paddling and competing and this is exactly what the current vets competition allows. I'm too quick for Division 2, but I wouldn't make it to enough division one's to make it worthwhile.

My main motivation for going to a race is to help coach the kids, support the parents, carry boats, transport boats, help with running the event in any way.... often I end up om the Jury which I am more than happy to do. Talking to other paddlers (mainly mums and dad's) many have said they have or will likely switch to the vets competition to enable them to continue to paddle at the same races as their kids and friends, so please, please leave it as one big division.

I have entered the HPP div 1 in July to see how I go, (my aim is to get more than 500 points ), again though this is primarily because we will have 4 other club paddlers racing that day and the following day a few more will be in action in the division 2 race.

On the prizes from the competitions front, I usually hand them back if they can be used another time; a round of applause, slice of cake or a bottle of cold cider would be a great substitute!

Chris

I've only been to a few events since the system changed, but I too like the current arrangement. There seems to be a very good spirit of camaraderie around the vets start lines at present, exemplified by Chris's post above. We are also starting to see an increased interest in the category and a greater uptake of the vets option.
Some adjustment to the points system to give more credit to higher level events would make sense, but I would strongly favour keeping one big division, with free choice over which events to enter.
Enjoy!
Jerry.

Vets points

I'm all in favour of one division. It's more fun.

However the current vets points system is not fit for purpose. I think we all accept that it is best to race at Div 2 events where there is every probability of picking up 500 points. Not something I want to do. I enjoy the challenge of the tougher courses and higher standard of competition.

The step in difficulty, standard and speed of paddlers from Div 2 to Div1 is substantial. And the step to Premier is even greater. It is much harder to get points at Div 1 and exponentially tougher at Prem.

Here's an example from last season for yours truly at Lee Valley 15/ 16 September 2019:

British open - Olympic course Saturday - 152 points - I think I was the only vet to take it on.
Div 2 - Legacy course Sunday - 500 points.

I paddled at the same standard on both days. Yet I got less than a third of the points for racing on the Olympic against Prem paddlers who are much much faster. How can this miss match be sustainable? There are loads of other examples. It’s nearly as bad at Div 1 races.

I have paddled vet for years and even won it a few times. And it is for me a way of keeping paddling without the stress of having to score points at enough races to stay up. And I fully understand those who do it just for fun. So do I. I love being able to race anywhere I like. And it motivates me to keep fit.

It is non the less dispiriting and unfair to end up with fewer points for going to the tougher events racing against stiffer competition.

If this doesn’t change we ought to stop having a points system for vets and simply keep a tally of who has done most races - to see who can attend most events in a season.

I would favour a handicap system where divisional points are adjusted by a factor which truly reflects the differences in difficulty and standard of competition between divisions.

Something like this:

Premier x 1.00
Div 1. x 0.80
Div 2. x. 0.25
Div 3. x. 0.15
Etc

These factors need number crunching in comparison to results. However I’m afraid 10% here or there doesn’t do it.

Hi Bob.

I understand the issue and think that you have explained it very well indeed.

However some of the current Vet.'s are paddlers who only ever reached Division 3 standard of performance. Why would they wish to race at a Division 3 event, perhaps achieving a time that was as fast as the host event winner's time, to then get only a fraction of the 250 points available?

The same is true for some other Vet.'s who I would consider as current Division 2 standard of Paddler. If the system you are suggesting was ever brought in those Vet.'s would just revert to paddling in the normal divisional system.

If you and similar ability paddlers wish to enter Division 1 and even Premier races but feel that the points you secure are inappropriate reward for the experience then perhaps a better system would be as follows;-
Premier event points secured x 3 for Vet.'s
Division 1 event points secured x 2 for Vets.'s
Division 2 events points secured x 1.25 for Vet.'s
Division 3 events points secured x 1.0 for Vet.'s

Again these factors would need further number crunching and possible refinement.
Steve

Hi Steve

I reckon you are getting pretty close with these multiples, pretty simple to follow and from my own experience looks about right. Maybe is someone has some time on their hands after a few more races take the top 10 paddlers and see how it would make the ranking list look??

Chris

Is there anything wrong with the current system as one of the current C1 Vet.'s was able to secure 1,000 ranking points from last weekend's HPP event? Well Done Joel.

If changes are made to the current system could it be done just for Kayak classes?

If changes such as those being suggested in this thread are introduced as a way to improve ranking points secured by Vet.'s at this level of race then you may go back to what happened in previous seasons where several C1 Vet.'s achieved full points at most Division 1 races they entered.