Vets - New Points System Please

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
Dee
Posts: 1444
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 8:34 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Dee » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:51 pm

djberriman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:35 pm
er No Dee. it would simple mean as Div 2 Vet (which seems fair given my results) I wouldn't get prizes at a Div 3............. still race, still get points but no prize. Cake to be bought from on site catering or baked by my lovely daughter or scrounged from Sarah if I can get there before Les has eaten it all.
What about at a div 2/3 competition? (Or a div 3 paddling at a div 1)

Slightly off track ... Years ago I had a vet at a race who was quite put out that we did not print his results on a separate piece of paper as we had done with other classes (so that paddlers could see their position). Card was on display and it was pretty easy to see where he had come ie first and last, so I didn’t really get it. Nowt so queer as folk, I guess :). But things like that make me slightly wary!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

djberriman
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by djberriman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:54 pm

Its only in one direction... so a div 3 vet at a div 1 gets the prize if they are the fastest.

At a div 2/3 you are racing a div 2 race (rule 2.10.6b) and the course is set to a div 2 standard. So just a div 2 vets prize unless you wish to do otherwise. In this case Prem and 1 vets would be ignored for prizes.

If however it is a 2/3 with separate courses then it would depend on which race you entered.

Of course everyone publishes there prizes on the start list as per rule 19.8.1 so all will be clear.

And you don't need to award it in a non quotate event as per rule 19.8.2

All in all it was just to say I'm a div 2 standard Vet and I don't want a prize at a Div 3 event! Please just let me race and have fun. I'll have a good battle at a Div 2 and it must be a funny day if I get a prize at a Div 1.

harratts
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri May 18, 2012 3:51 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by harratts » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:43 pm

Hi Nick.

I think you may have misunderstood the point that I was making.

If several Vet.'s at Division 2 & / or Division 3 races get full points currently then it is because they were faster than the 2nd fastest Paddler in the corresponding host division class. This is because we currently use a direct time comparison to calculate their points. It is therefore quite justified for several of them to get full points if they were fast enough so nobody would have a problem with it.

If this situation was created by the use of a time adjustment factor then one Vet. may be deserving of full points based on their time alone but other Vet.'s may only be getting full points because their time has been adjusted artificially. That is what I would not like to see be the result of such a mechanism being introduced.

Steve

p.s. Thanks Jim. I think that I can count on one hand the amount of times when someone has said that they agree with Steve Harratt.

Jerry Tracey
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:09 am

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Jerry Tracey » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:36 pm

Since the merger into a single division, I have enjoyed re-discovering local Div.2 events, etc. It is clear that the presence of Vets at such events is very welcome to boost entry numbers, unlike at some over-subscribed Div.1s. It is very pleasing to see the numbers on our start line steadily increasing, with a continuing pleasant atmosphere of mutual encouragement.
I do agree, though, that the points system needs a slight adjustment so as to better reflect the range of standards, with more credit given to results at higher division events. Although we are usually 'not serious' in terms of intensive training and so on, many of us do take an interest in the points and keep an eye on our relative ranking positions.

On a different tack, should we perhaps consider changing the name to avoid possible confusion with military veterans / Invictus Games participants, etc. ? (Grand Masters ?!?).

Jerry.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:03 am

djberriman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:54 pm
Its only in one direction... so a div 3 vet at a div 1 gets the prize if they are the fastest.
Er, what stops everyone declaring as div 3 then?

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:07 am

djberriman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:52 pm
Dee does the online entry, Dave Spencer does Simply Slalom which produces the results, Nick loads them into the ranking database, and with the bib officers maintains the ranking database. I run the database and write the code that provides the info for Nick's site, Dees system and Daves Sytem.

Sort of goes like this:-

Ranking system => Paddler Info => Entry system => Entries => Simply Slalom => Results => Ranking System
Ranking system ==========================Paddler Info=>

So any changes to points its Dave who feels the pain (and anyone else who chooses not to use SS).
Fair point, and I did of course know that, just didn't think through who is actually affected by what when posting.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:17 am

Dee wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:51 pm

Slightly off track ... Years ago I had a vet at a race who was quite put out that we did not print his results on a separate piece of paper as we had done with other classes (so that paddlers could see their position). Card was on display and it was pretty easy to see where he had come ie first and last, so I didn’t really get it.
Not sure if it was the case then, or even if it is an actual rule rather than just a sensible procedure I have been told to use, but in my understanding, the 15 minutes limit on protest time commences once the printed sheet goes on display, rather than the card... The timing time note the time on the printed sheets before posting, for this purpose. I am not sure we have consistently remembered to note the time at our div 2's, but we tend to excercise flexibility and discretion since we get a lot of people doubling or even tripling up or boat sharing, who might not get a chance to see the sheet within the 15 minute window if they even have time to pop their head in and check the card.

djberriman
Posts: 806
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by djberriman » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:23 am

JimW wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:03 am
Er, what stops everyone declaring as div 3 then?
Common sense, common decency, fair play?

But if you need someone to make a decision, then I'd suggest a gaggle of Vets form a committee to make such decisions. I think its fairly obvious from the results where each Vet should declare, if you want to go trophy hunting then good luck to you.

Steve Holmes
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2018 11:05 am

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Steve Holmes » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:29 am

djberriman wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:23 am
JimW wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:03 am
Er, what stops everyone declaring as div 3 then?
Common sense, common decency, fair play?

But if you need someone to make a decision, then I'd suggest a gaggle of Vets form a committee to make such decisions. I think its fairly obvious from the results where each Vet should declare, if you want to go trophy hunting then good luck to you.
Self regulation works fairly well at the Stone Minis. I declared myself div 2 at the first one. Once I realised I’d won div 2 (albeit only just) I swiftly went to control to declare myself div 1.

JBS
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:01 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JBS » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:12 pm

I'm pretty happy to see it stay as it is.
I like the challenge of trying to get the full 1000 at a Div 1 in my C1 and accept that when I got in the semi final at the Open last year (thanks for forgetting I was there too Bob :oops: ) I got less points than at a Div 2 where I pick up the full 500 easily.
In my K1 it's a whole other story......I have to fight like mad (or learn to paddle a k1 properly) to get the full 500 at a Div 2 and on the third attempt got more than 500 at a Div1....just!
Given that there is the strong possibility of more talented mature K1M joining the fray next year I would be loathe to a knee jerk reaction to cater for the (currently) few of us that venture higher up the divisions without a significant points haul.

It's not the lack of points that stops me racing a prem.....it's the balance of time/family. At a Div 2 the whole family races....at a Prem it would just be me. That is not the most exciting weekend for the rest of the family.
Yes, I race hard when I get over the start line and yes, I chased the points hard, but only because they are there. At the end of the day, the challenge is just to do the best possible run I can and the points are very much secondary.

Prizes....I usually give them back. I would much prefer something edible!

Mike Mitchell
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Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by Mike Mitchell » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:22 pm

Nobody has mentioned Age. Should we also have an Age calculation.
But that will make everything impossible for a Vet to work out.

I am going to join you all in Vets K1 next year as my results have dropped and with the Percentile System I can no longer get entries at Prem Races [Div1 paddle ups] So in order to guarantee an entry at the British open I will need to be a Vet.
At Div 1 Races I do usually get over the 500 points mark or above half way, which is a good incentive, but at a Prem race to get 100 points would be a top result.

So it douse look like something is needed if we are going to get rewarded for racing on the hardest courses.

You would need to have at least a 5X Prem result to even get close to a 500point Div2 win.

Anyway whatever happens it good to see so many vets racing again.

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:32 am

JimW wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:21 pm
It has been touched on that there is another Pachyderm on the premises, that when a bunch of what would have been P/1 vets descend on a div 2 race or 3 race for points, several of them can achieve full points because we are always treated like an inquorate host class. How about (and this would be a real headache for Dave!), if a Vet beats the first place host division paddler, AND the Vets class within vets would have been quorate in its right (i.e. 5 or more, or maybe 3 or more like div 4?), Vets scores are not compared to host division but distributed as if it was a host division. I think this would only have an impact on K1M, I don't think I have seen 5 x K1W vets or 5 x C1 vets of any gender on the same start line (I think we only have 1 C1W?).
Having thought some more about this, its a daft idea, please ignore it!
It could result in say div 2 equivalent vets getting less points than they deserve if some prem equivalent vets enter for points and the event were to be quorate. That's not what I had intended.

WindsorCC
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Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by WindsorCC » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:04 pm

Just my 10p worth - I definitely would not support going back to a time modifier. As Nick's analysis showed, and Steve H pointed out (quite rightly ;)), at Llandysul me and Craig would have got the same number of points. It'd have been even worse if Joel had been there and beaten us both, but all three would have ended up with 1000 points, despite potentially a large time difference.

We need something that works consistently across all classes, and works long-term regardless of which padders are racing in any given year.

I do think that a points multiplier may be the way to go, but others have raised quite wisely that vets has exploded this year, and in coming years we're likely to have more paddlers coming across, including some very strong K1Ms who are currently getting top half in Div 1, so do we need to let it settle down before making more changes?

If there is a strong view that there needs to be a change, my view would be it needs to be a points multiplier applied consistently across classes, based on multipliers that gives the right number of points so that (for example) a bottom quarter at prem gives you the same points as a win at div 1, and a bottom quarter at div 1 gives you the same as a win at Div 2 (or something like that).

rose
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:25 pm

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by rose » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:47 pm

Do the points need to be compared to the ranking competition points? At some competitions I have seen the vets all being awarded the same points, but the results quite a difference?? Just a thought???

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Vets - New Points System Please

Post by JimW » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:07 pm

rose wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:47 pm
Do the points need to be compared to the ranking competition points? At some competitions I have seen the vets all being awarded the same points, but the results quite a difference?? Just a thought???
Yes, that was my mistake above.
Because any vet can enter any race, if you had 4 vets capable of scoring max points at div 2 and one who can normally get near top of div 3 all entered in a div 3 race with points distributed only between the vets, the div 3 vet would most likely only get 50 points for his/her trouble even if he/she actually gets a better time than all of the actual div 3 paddlers. It would potentially destroy the incentive for vets happy in the lower divisions to continue racing, and we don't want that. Better for all 5 to be tied on max points reflecting that they all could have won if they had been in division.

Similarly at div 1s we can often end up with several of us 10 or 20 seconds apart all scoring the same as the last div 1 paddler not to have a 50, that is where more points are probably deserved, but even so those paddlers would still all be on the same points as a result of their times, just that the points would be more if a multiplier was used. I think this is right, because we are not racing in division, but should get points based on where we would have finished in the division. If 5 vets all had times at a div 1 that were slower than all the div 1's, why should one of them get 1000 points, another 800, etc. etc.

This is basically the issue that C1 has in several divisions, on days where C1 is just quorate but no good paddlers turn up, someone gets max points that really shouldn't have, and on other days where a race is just quorate and only the best paddlers turn up, one of them gets minimum points even if they were only 0.5 seconds off the winner and would have beaten all the K1M...

Bob's plan is still best so far.

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