Promotion and 50's

General slalom chatter...rant about the bad, rave about the good
djberriman
Posts: 750
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:19 pm

Promotion and 50's

Post by djberriman » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:02 pm

Here is a thought, don't know if anyone has put anything forward but just from observations over the year and also recent experience and river bank chats.

Division 4: A paddler who has a 50 (or for simplicities sake) 50 or more penalty points shall not be promoted from Div4.

Q: If so would you promote the next paddler (who was slow but got all the gates).

Other divisions:

A result with 50 or more penalty points will not be included in the paddlers promotion calculation.

I doubt a motion will be put in in time but feel free to discuss. Interested in everyones thoughts.

CeeBee
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Location: Falkirk

Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by CeeBee » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:30 pm

This is an interesting topic!

I think I would agree that you should not be promoted with a '50'. Given that most slaloms have less than 25 gates , you can't actually get 50 penalty seconds without missing a gate and getting a '50'.

How many people has this applied to this year? I would suspect very few from Div 4 to Div 3 and even less in the ranking Divisions.

djberriman
Posts: 750
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by djberriman » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:48 pm

A few, I know of examples in Div 4 and having taken a quick look I can see case of Div 3 and Div 2 paddlers who have been promoted with 50's in their results. I'll see if I can work out some more conclusive figures.

Steve Holmes
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by Steve Holmes » Thu Oct 24, 2019 11:22 pm

As I’m off work and bored, I went through all the div 4 results so far this season. As far as I can make out it happened 3 times. At Marple Duncan’s argument is solid, one girl got promoted with a 50 above girls who got all the gates. In the other 2 cases, maybe there’s an argument for not promoting either as they got ridiculous amounts of penalties, but the people they beat either got the same number of 50s, or more, or swam (or were just there to make up numbers and got out...) so probably aren’t upset by it.
Maybe the rules should be changed to say that if you get a 50 at any level you automatically cannot finish above anyone who got all the gates? Or a hierarchy - if x paddlers got no fifties, the first x places go to them, the next however many go to those with 1 50, then those with 2 and so on.

JimW
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by JimW » Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:53 pm

Intersting observations and suggestions.

A 50 second penalty is supposed to be severe enough to put a paddler well out of contention so that rules like this shouldn't be needed, but clesrly there are exceptional cases where it doesn't work.

At div 4 it makes sense that if someone in a promotable position has a 50, no-one from that position down should get promoted, BUT that's always assuming the div 4 race is on a course suitable for div 4 and not one of the ones tacked onto a div 2/3 race (rules say not permitted, but they keep going on the calendar, I think I'm supposed to be running one next year) where there are gates that it is not reasonable to expect div 4 competitors to be able to get yet.

Div 2 K1M is way too competitive for there to be promotions with 50s penalties in one of the top 5 results (unless a paddler is promoted on 3 wins and has another random result) so I am assuming this is happening in other classes? Seems to me that istead of making new rules for/against promotion with 50's we should be thinking seriously about using the class factors and comparing all other classes to K1M (or largest class on the day?) for points allocation. Envisage a situation where none of the best paddlers in a class are present and those who have turned up all end up getting (or deliberately taking) 50s penalties, none of them will end up with undeserved full points. Envisage another situation where several paddlers in a class are outstandingly brilliant and can beat all paddlers in the reference class, this way they would all be rewarded with good points and the anomolies that invariably turn up when a class quorate but not big would be suppressed.

Dee
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by Dee » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:10 pm

JimW wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:53 pm
... and not one of the ones tacked onto a div 2/3 race (rules say not permitted, but they keep going on the calendar ...
Those that you see on the calendar may not be 2/3/4s on the same course. The requirement is that the div 4 course in such circumstances will be easier - often this simply means that for div 4s a couple of gates are excluded from the course (ideally a couple of the hardest ones!).

(It can mean that it is taking place at a different section entirely, eg Llandysul 1/4 is actually a 1 on the river and a 4 on the lake, but probably a less common scenario for a 2/3/4)
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Dee
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by Dee » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:15 pm

The expectation is that courses should be designed such that missing a gate will mean that others who have got the gate should beat you. This should be achievable at P/1/2, but at 3/4 could be easier said than done. I think I'd argue that if everyone gets a 50 then the course could possibly be just too hard for the level of competition.
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

Nick Penfold
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by Nick Penfold » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:03 pm

Please let's keep at least this one thing simple. Promotion from Div 4 to Div 3 to one in five.

If you've got into the top 20% with a 50, the other paddlers' results must be awful and it may well be too difficult a course. How can we know? And is it a good idea to deny promotions to paddlers who might not have another go?

Dee
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by Dee » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:15 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:03 pm
Please let's keep at least this one thing simple.
A man after my own heart :) Completely agree. Rules are far too complex as it is. And pity the organiser who has to explain to the jubilant winner that their result doesn't count for promotion because it wasn't good enough!
Kit Washer, Entry Clerk, Chauffeur, Reluctant Organiser, Online Entry Advocate .....
Anything I post under this user is my personal opinion; I am not posting as a member of the Slalom Committee!

JimW
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Location: Pinkston

Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by JimW » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:20 pm

I found an example of a div 2 paddler for whom one of her top 5 scores used for promotion had at least one 50 on each run. She was paddling up in div 1 at the time and even with 50s came away with enough points to count. Arguably then she was more capable of being in div 1 than the div 1 paddlers she beat to get that score...

(my search was not exhaustive, the only other paddler I spotted was promoted on 3 wins, he did have 5 results and one had 50s both runs, but it wasn't one of the 3 wins actually used to calculate the promotion).

Are we putting too much thought into improbable scenarios - sure they have happened, and may happen again, but are they really spoiling anything for anyone?

djberriman
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by djberriman » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:13 pm

Nick Penfold wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:03 pm
If you've got into the top 20% with a 50, the other paddlers' results must be awful and it may well be too difficult a course.
Is anyone awful? I'd hope not.

In prem a 50 destroys your run, in some of the lower divisions this is not always the case. A prem paddler might do a course in 90 or less seconds, at lower levels particularly at div 3/4 if you can go 2 seconds faster per gate you can wipe out a 50. There are huge extremes of age, strength, fitness and ability at lower levels, plus the field of entrants is generally much smaller.

It is often said by some that paddlers getting promoted too early or too easily in certain classes , it was just a thought that if you are unable to complete a course without a 50 then you may not be ready to progress even IF you did beat all the other paddlers. The course may not be difficult just the paddlers competing in that class on that day couldn't manage it when others in other classes could, that's reality, just depends who and how many turn up.

In some cases even the paddlers themselves don't want to be promoted as they know they aren't ready yet, they didn't do it for that reason but simply they didn't want to give the move a go yet but still got promoted, yikes is generally their answer, never to be seen again.

Anyway as I say just a point for discussion.

jke
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by jke » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:59 am

I can’t believe you’re fretting over this, particularly if you add the likes of dodgy gate calls into the mix at this level. It may just come down to a paddler not having the benefit (?) of someone screaming at them from the bank to go back and do the gate again. It all comes out in the wash. We’re ending up with more and more rules.
djberriman wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:13 pm
In some cases even the paddlers themselves don't want to be promoted...
What’s more important is the forced promotion from div 4 who may have just done their first race. They may have never been on moving water. And more importantly they or their parents haven’t had time to buy into BC membership and all the travel, so that’s the last time you see them.
John Kent

JimW
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by JimW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:10 pm

Paddlers who don't want to get promoted have options like entering as an official instead of ranking event (just email the organiser if you were already entered when you decided it was an issue, we organisers are always happy to have more judges so I can't see any refusing to change your entry), or entering an open class when available. It simply doesn't make sense to deliberately add 50s penalties to a ranking run to try to get a bad result - that's not racing, you can't see how well you could have done from that, with an open or officials run you can still give it your all and see how well you would have done, without scoring unwanted points.

I already thought this was a bad idea, if this is really one of the considerations that makes it seem like a good idea then I think we have lost our way. We shouldn't be changing rules so that paddlers can deliberately throw 50's in when they don't want to be promoted when they have other options available that allow them to still race properly.

John's point re: div 4 promotions may well be something to think about, but I think having the option to decline promotion would be better than encouraging people to miss gates.

JimW
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Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by JimW » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:22 pm

Dee wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:10 pm
JimW wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 1:53 pm
... and not one of the ones tacked onto a div 2/3 race (rules say not permitted, but they keep going on the calendar ...
Those that you see on the calendar may not be 2/3/4s on the same course. The requirement is that the div 4 course in such circumstances will be easier - often this simply means that for div 4s a couple of gates are excluded from the course (ideally a couple of the hardest ones!).
Some very definitely are on the same course though.
Sometimes excluding gates is not realistic, the hardest feature might be unavoidable (whether or not it has gates on it) and excluding gates in the middle of the course is too much for most div 4s to take in bearing in mind that everything is new and possibly confusing to them.

jke
Posts: 117
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:33 pm

Re: Promotion and 50's

Post by jke » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:39 pm

JimW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:10 pm
Paddlers who don't want to get promoted have options like entering as an official instead of ranking event...
No, you can't do that with young club paddlers just starting out.

And
JimW wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:10 pm
It simply doesn't make sense to deliberately add 50s penalties to a ranking run to try to get a bad result.
I've never come across that. And it probably wasn't in Duncan's mind when he started the thread.
John Kent

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